Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Rideback
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by Rideback »

Jingles, Google the Social Contract.

As Mr Coffee's math demonstrated there's really no difference in $ to drivers if they pay at the pump or by the miles. But there would be a difference in govt, as in why keep both gas taxes and mileage taxes when one would suffice? The Feds and State want to capture the taxes but there's no need to add another tax (thus creating more work/workers/more govt) when the problem can be solved by moving to a single tax.
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by Jingles »

Rideback po :idea: wrote:Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:13 pm Currently the EV's on the road are not paying a tax similar to the IC vehicles that pay at the pump. For now, that's a tiny bit of revenue lost to the state and to the Feds but as more ICs are replaced by EV's it will become a financial concern for govts.

I've noticed lots of insurance companies offering customers discounts if they'll put trackers on their cars and they general :idea: ly assess how much to charge or discount your rate based on the mileage you drive every year. Tracking isn't a new thing.

I suspect that the per mile charge would actually work out to be less than the taxes charged at the pump that we're paying now.
Would seem equitable that instead of charging everyone a tax on miles driven , charge only those that are not paying the tax through the purchase of the fuel to run their nasty smelly outdated IC engines. :idea: But that makes to much sense to only charge people that are using but not already paying a fee to use the roads

MR COFFEE
I am continously amazed at the number of people that are willing to let the government dictate how they live, instead of the people dictating to the government how to operate as was and is the purpose of the Constitutions of both the US and WA.but sheep will be sheep
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mister_coffee
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by mister_coffee »

PAL wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:42 am Do you think people would be totally honest? No tinkering allowed but how would "they" know until the car was sold whether or not people were honest.\
...
I think most people would be honest. A certain irreducible percentage of people would cheat on something like this on general principles, whether it did them any good or not. What I think would make it fair is that if it becomes obvious you cheated when you are attempting to sell your car, you need to pay the back taxes and a 200 percent penalty before you can sell your car. Or if the fraud is large enough the state gets your car and you get nothing.

Also if you tried to make the title transfer documents consistent with your tax cheating, that would constitute fraud and you can and should be prosecuted for it.

As a record-keeping function, you should be required to submit a photo of your dashboard with the odometer reading clearly visible when you get your tabs and pay your taxes.

Once again, this isn't that difficult.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
just-jim
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by just-jim »

I agree - it isn’t awful at all; reporting should/could be easy, unless we choose to make it, unnecessarily, so.

As far as cost - I did the math on an older Toyota truck @ 10k mi/yr. It is just about a wash at $250/yr.

I think it is pretty equitable this way and gets the EV owners paying. As they should. If they’ve already received a subsidy in the form of a hefty tax credit on Fed income tax when they bought the vehicle, doesn’t seem to me they need additional breaks on use taxes. (Overall, I do support a subsidy for first time buyers of those vehicles, too)

I’m in favor, I think.
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by PAL »

Would we be reporting our odometer reading once a year or would some kind of device be reading it? Do you think people would be totally honest?
No tinkering allowed but how would "they" know until the car was sold whether or not people were honest.
You won't see me in Idaho or Montana. Absolutely right about those draconian states. Hmmm, the Draconian States of America. MIght as well throw Texas and Florida in there. But Texas is where tires are manufactured.
The EV folks really do need to pay their fair share. Maybe when they get their car charged.
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by mister_coffee »

I honestly don't think this is that difficult at all, and like I said if you have your knickers in a twist about it you really aren't thinking that hard.

I have to question one's wisdom if you'd advocate moving to Idaho or Montana because of a mileage tax. Idaho appears to be in the process of outlawing vaccines, and Montana is for all practical purposes intending to outlaw any kind of advanced technical education. If you have a choice of living somewhere where you have to report your odometer readings once per year or can't get vaccinated, I think it is pretty clear from a quality of life (heck, from a quantity of life) standpoint which is the better deal.

Just now I did the math for myself. Assuming 30_000 miles per year, and a vehicle that average 25 miles per gallon, my WA gas tax hit is just shy of $600. Under the New Regime my milage tax would be $750 per year. Oh, the horror! At worst this is modestly annoying and it isn't worth moving to the medieval hellhole that Idaho is becoming over something like this.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by PAL »

Ok, add it in at the time of vehicle license renewal. Ultimately, my math whiz husband figured, if the gas tax would be dropped, eventually, as the article says(which would that really happen?) the per mile would be less.I don't quite believe that.
In answer to your question of why we make this so complicated. Because humans make things as complicated as possible, don't you think?
But we on this BB certainly did not think up this per mile concoction.
I looked up "weird edge case". Computereeze.
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by mister_coffee »

Jeez people.

We already have odometers in cars. We already have laws on the books making it illegal to tamper with an odometer. It isn't technically impossible to make that (tampering with an odometer) very difficult to do without getting caught. We also have to report the odometer readings when we sell a car as well.

So before we all clutch our pearls we might want to just take a deep breath and realize that this isn't really that complicated. You could do a more than adequate job of this if you just had to report your odometer reading when you renew your tabs. We'd catch up to the people who are lying when they sell their vehicle or trade it in, one way or the other.

On the subject of people who drive a lot in other states, I think we can all agree that the vast majority of Washington auto owners do the majority of their driving in Washington. People who don't are a small minority and really a weird edge case, and making the whole thing impossible because of a weird edge case is just plain silly and obstructionist.

So why are we making this so complicated?
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by PAL »

Something that is being overlooked here is the fact that cars, trucks, all use tires. Tax the petro chemical plants that pollute and produce these tires. (Read the depressing book, "The World Without Us" If you want to know about how tires are produced. It's not pretty.) Of course the price would probably be increased to off set the taxes, but maybe not. Maybe it would be made so they couldn't.
The other thing, if we are worried about fossil fuels, and we want to reduce the crap in the air....air travel. What an industry. No one dares mention that.
A better, less polluting means of transport would be high speed rail. In this country? Not a chance. We are so far behind.
Electric cars can reduce the amount of fossil fuel, carbon in the air, fairly quickly. Electric vehicles are not the total solution or answer.
Drive less or less distances. Here in the Methow, unless we live in town, we do have to drive into town, but Covid helped with not making as many trips.

It would be next to impossible to implement this pay per mile plan except for those with electric cars, and as the article points out those are registered to mainly wealthy folks. But that's ok, let's add to the boondoggle. What a joke.
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Rideback
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by Rideback »

Currently the EV's on the road are not paying a tax similar to the IC vehicles that pay at the pump. For now, that's a tiny bit of revenue lost to the state and to the Feds but as more ICs are replaced by EV's it will become a financial concern for govts.

I've noticed lots of insurance companies offering customers discounts if they'll put trackers on their cars and they generally assess how much to charge or discount your rate based on the mileage you drive every year. Tracking isn't a new thing.

I suspect that the per mile charge would actually work out to be less than the taxes charged at the pump that we're paying now.
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Re: Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by Jingles »

pasayten wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:24 pm Jeez... Time to move to Idaho/Montana... Imagine the new state government infrastructure to implement and handle this... The invasion of privacy with government monitoring... You can't make this stuff up... Hilarious... Good grief...

Actually though... since we are retired, we would most likely come out ahead on this method...
Pay per mile?
Maybe time e to join Easten OR and have the WA state line moved to the Pacific crest, or consider Eastern OR and Eastern WA become the 51st state? Oh but wait there are a very large number of folks at least here in the Methow that would be totally out of place living in a Conservative state instead of a state the dictates to the people they are suppose to be working for
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pasayten
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Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington

Post by pasayten »

Jeez... Time to move to Idaho/Montana... Imagine the new state government infrastructure to implement and handle this... The invasion of privacy with government monitoring... You can't make this stuff up... Hilarious... Good grief...

Actually though... since we are retired, we would most likely come out ahead on this method... lol...
Drivers could soon pay per mile to use public roadways in Washington
Story by Ryan Simms, KOMO News Reporter • 4h ago

Lawmakers in Olympia are considering a pay-per-mile program that would eventually replace Washington state's gas tax.

As part of House Bill 1832, a Road Usage Charge (RUC) program would charge drivers 2.5 cents per mile. According to the legislation, drivers of hybrid or electric cars could voluntarily participate in the program starting in July 2026. In the process, electric car owners would qualify for refunds on licensing fees, which can cost up to $275 a year.


In 2030, the RUC would become mandatory for all Washington drivers, regardless of if a car is electric or powered by gas.

If approved, the state could only charge drivers for travel on interstates, state highways and other city and county maintained roads. Travel on private roads would not be included.

The proposal comes as more of Washington's drivers use hybrid and electric cars. Given that those cars use little to no fuel, users of the vehicles largely avoid paying Washington's gas taxes. As a result, sponsors of the pay-per-mile program insist that something needs to be done to solve the continual decline in the state's gas tax revenues.

"Gasoline revenues are headed downward," state house transportation committee chair Jake Fey, a Tacoma Democrat, testified to Washington legislators on Tuesday.

Fey added that increased fuel efficiency is causing the state's transportation budget to shrink. As a result, he said, there is less money for things like transportation projects and road repairs.

Representatives with Washington's Policy Center were quick to denounce the proposal, saying that the pay-per-mile program would negatively impact people in rural areas of Washington.

"This cap would be especially problematic in the context of equity," Mairiya Frost of Washington Policy Center wrote. "Most electric vehicles in the state are registered in western Washington in wealthy zip codes. This bill is not a good approach to implementing RUC policy in Washington state and would create significant funding and equity problems."

Frost cited other concerns as well, including how to tax out-of-state drivers who use Washington roads and how to exclude Washington drivers from the miles they travel out-of-state. She said they are also worried about privacy, because GPS trackers could monitor a person's overall mileage.
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