Covid Big Time in Twisp - Again

[Moniepenne]

Pfizer tweeted recently that in essence its vaccine doesn't work, necessitating a 'therapeutic'.

QUOTE
Pfizer Inc.@pfizer
Jul 28
Alongside vaccines, success against #COVID19 will likely require #antiviral treatments for those who contract the virus. We’ve started a Phase 2/3 trial to evaluate a potential oral therapy that will enroll over 2,000 participants infected with SARS-CoV-2: https://on.pfizer.com/376FGpI
UNQUOTE

Is a heart attack, stroke, or other horrible health event in your future???? The spike protein feature of the engineered virus AND the 'vaccine' is probably not there for the good of mankind, being as it sticks to blood vessel walls. Your vaccine doesn't protect against the virus but it does encode for making the spike protein?? Why would that be. COVID19 is said to be a vascular disease...so do the so called COVID19 cases exhibit this trait or merely traits of the common cold/flu?

Did you know the federal health agencies are abandoning the existing COVID19 test because of such a high level of false positives? And inabiilty to distinguish between the common cold/flu. The tests only have generic cold/viral fragments....not COVID19. So what is the REAL case/death count over the past 18 mos???

Food for thought, in case people are getting too far over their skis.....

[pasayten]

Highly Vaccinated States Keep Worst Covid-19 Outcomes in Check as Delta Spreads, WSJ Analysis Shows

https://www.wsj.com/articles/highly-vac ... _lead_pos1

[Fun CH]

We can keep explaining to people why they should get vaccinated. In simple terms, the virus seeks opportunity and will seek the unvaccinated, and it is being given a chance to mutate to a more deadly form, the more hosts it finds. They are contributing to a virus that may defy vaccinations if they don't get vaccinated real soon. And unfortunately, I would think many unvaccinated don't want to mask up, hence we have a surge.
Do I have that right?

According to a "Time" magazine article a lot of folks getting vaccinated did so because the desire to travel or convinced by a friend. So government imposed travel restrictions work and yet the unvaccinated can still fly. Why? A clear failure by the Biden administration. So if anyone wants to point fingers, I'd start there.


Shaming the unvaccinated doesn't work.

"What doesn’t work, clearly, is pointing fingers and casting blame and shame. It’s the virus that’s the enemy, after all, not the people it infects."

https://time.com/5951755/how-to-convinc ... accinated/

[pasayten]

Unvaccinated More Than Twice as Likely to Get Covid-19 Again, CDC Says...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/unvaccinat ... 1628276064

Why scientists are talking about viral load and the delta variant...
https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science ... c-rcna1604

[Fun CH]

If the goal of this thread is to persuade people to get vaccinated, its not likely to secede with this type of rhetoric.

How is it even possible to persuade people who have abandoned all logic and reason? What would be the definition of success in that case?

Perhaps some prefer to get the disease and reach immunity naturally? Or still think its a hoax.
You won't be able to convince those folks.

Vaccination rates have increased after hearing that hospital stats, increased probability of catching the disease and testimonials given by non believers who are very, very sick.

You did have one post I thought was insightful. All I know is that people don't respond well when others advocate for rights to be taken from them and they are not given respect.

We all share that trait. Many social justice cases championed by the left (and historically the Republican party platform before the flip flop) are based upon that principle ie: Inalienable human rights.

To address one of your previous points, there was a time in this country when it was constitutionally justifiable and lawful to uproot Americans of Japanese ancestry and place them into concentration camps. Fear was the motivation then also.

You can be afraid that the unvaccinated in this country will cause the virus mutate to become even deadlier, but how are you going to deal with virus mutations that occur in the rest of the world or Florida, or Tennessee? Remember the Delta variant was first discovered in India where vaccines are not available to the masses.

[mister_coffee]

We can keep explaining to people why they should get vaccinated. In simple terms, the virus seeks opportunity and will seek the unvaccinated, and it is being given a chance to mutate to a more deadly form, the more hosts it finds. They are contributing to a virus that may defy vaccinations if they don't get vaccinated real soon. And unfortunately, I would think many unvaccinated don't want to mask up, hence we have a surge.
Do I have that right?

Yes. The unvaccinated are causing this surge of death and suffering.

More precisely, they are choosing death and suffering for themselves and everyone else.

[mister_coffee]

If the goal of this thread is to persuade people to get vaccinated, its not likely to secede with this type of rhetoric.

How is it even possible to persuade people who have abandoned all logic and reason? What would be the definition of success in that case?

I will settle for forcing them to get a vaccine that is proven safe and effective. My hope is to minimize human suffering and death.

We routinely lock up tuberculosis patients who refuse treatment and refuse to wear a mask. Why should people who could be COVID super spreaders be treated any differently? My own suspicion is that it is a matter for most of us that we perceive that tuberculosis patients aren't like us so what happens to them is irrelevant. The vaccine refuseniks look too much like ourselves for us to be comfortable forcing them to take a vaccine. A vaccine that I remind you has been proven extremely safe and effective. It isn't like we are forcing people to take horse medicine or inject bleach.

[PAL]

We can keep explaining to people why they should get vaccinated. In simple terms, the virus seeks opportunity and will seek the unvaccinated, and it is being given a chance to mutate to a more deadly form, the more hosts it finds. They are contributing to a virus that may defy vaccinations if they don't get vaccinated real soon. And unfortunately, I would think many unvaccinated don't want to mask up, hence we have a surge.
Do I have that right?

[Fun CH]

except that mandatory covid 19 vaccines are not the law in Wa. State

I'm sorry. My point was that there is no legal or constitutional barrier to states or local governments making COVID vaccines mandatory. And they (either state or local governments) would have enormous discretion to extravagantly fine or indefinitely detain people who refused to get vaccinated without a good medical exemption.

And I'd be all for it. I think a $50,000 fine would be fair. And it might generate some revenue too.

except that; from WSDOH

"It will be your choice whether to get the vaccine for COVID-19. Washington is not currently considering any mandates for the vaccine, but employers could require it. The vaccine will help protect you and others around you from getting COVID-19, and we encourage you to talk to your doctor or clinic about the benefits. "

If the goal of this thread is to persuade people to get vaccinated, its not likely to secede with this type of rhetoric.

[mister_coffee]

except that mandatory covid 19 vaccines are not the law in Wa. State

I'm sorry. My point was that there is no legal or constitutional barrier to states or local governments making COVID vaccines mandatory. And they (either state or local governments) would have enormous discretion to extravagantly fine or indefinitely detain people who refused to get vaccinated without a good medical exemption.

And I'd be all for it. I think a $50,000 fine would be fair. And it might generate some revenue too.

[Fun CH]

So I think a lot of people don't even really understand what their rights are. If you disagree with that you are of course free to campaign for change or to choose a different country with different laws. But you can't pretend that isn't the law.

except that mandatory covid 19 vaccines are not the law in Wa. State

[pasayten]

In the last 7 days alone, Skagit County has reported 90 new confirmed COVID-19 cases and 10 new COVID-19 hospitalizations. State-wide hospital occupancy is at the highest levels seen to date in 2021 due to increased COVID-19 transmission and patient demand. If there was ever a time to get vaccinated, it is absolutely right now. https://skagitcounty.blog/?p=3413

[Mark58]

On another BB I happened across a poster who does "give a rat's arse". Here's his short post:

I have had the virus and I’ve had both shots. I don’t think I could be less communicable in a Hazmat suit. But I will mask up when I’m asked to just to provide extra protection to the unvaccinated. What irritates me is that when this is all over, and some of these people are still alive and well they will thank God, they will thank the charlatans of right wing media, but they won’t thank me.


Mark Miller

[mister_coffee]

Oh, and one more thing.

It really frosts my cookies that we do not understand or even acknowledge the technological and scientific miracle that mRNA vaccines are. This is a huge fundamental breakthrough for our health that will likely have huge consequences in the near future. As ashamed as I am to be part of a species where some individual adults throw temper tantrums in public when asked to wear a mask, I am proud to be a member of a species that could make so remarkable a discovery.

Right now, scientists are working on mRNA vaccines for HIV, rabies, and influenza. Future possibilities include vaccines and treatments for malaria, tuberculosis, Hepatitis B, Cystic fibrosis, and Zika. In fact, a lot of the early mRNA research was on cancer treatments, and for some cancers (in particular skin cancer) this approach appears to be really promising.

At least in theory, the next time we are faced with a novel pathogen we can reasonably expect to be able to develop and safety test an mRNA vaccine for that disease in three or four months. And because mRNA vaccines are easier to manufacture and to scale up manufacture we could widely distribute such a vaccine very quickly.

I suppose there were people in the 1930s who complained about penicillin too...

[mister_coffee]

I guess some of my posts didn't survive the journey.

wombat made the point that we won't mandate that people can't eat junk food and in general make poor food choices. My argument is that communicable diseases are different. If I eat a bag of potato chips and go to the post office, other people there aren't at risk for gaining weight, hypertension, or diabetes.

You can make a similar and blindingly obvious argument about the "my body my choice" thing -- pregnancy is not a communicable disease either. I consider this so obvious that I suspect the people making the argument know this as well and are making the argument in bad faith.

Communicable diseases are different because they can spread rapidly and unpredictably and easily overwhelm a health care system, so while people making poor diet choices can rack up impressive medical costs, they don't completely clog up the health care system the same way a disease outbreak does.

Communicable diseases are about biology. We are biological creatures. Biology is not fair and biology does not respect whatever you think your rights are.

In point of fact, there is no sane and rational definition of freedom or liberty that includes any "right" to expose others to a communicable disease. Such behavior is rightly considered a form of assault and is treated as a crime by the authorities. Since you can't know if you have this disease (because you can be infectious before you have symptoms or even have it show up on a test) I'd argue that the moral difference (if not the legal difference) between someone who deliberately tries to infect me with a disease and someone who militantly refuses to wear a mask or refuses a vaccine is tiny.

Also, it is recognized in our constitution and our law that State and Local governments have enormous discretionary powers when it comes to ensuring public health. That has included forcing people to get vaccinated, and forcing people to take medications. If people don't wish to they can be fined or detained until they agree to treatment. That has happened many times in our history (ref: Jacobson v Massachusetts). We have recently thrown people with tuberculosis in jail in multiple states when they refused to wear a mask or refused treatment (ref:
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story ... 303&page=1). To quote from that article:

Quarantine laws vary from state to state. This year, 17 tuberculosis patients in Texas were involuntarily locked up. In California, four were detained last year. In New York City in the 1990s, TB patients were forced into isolation after an outbreak.

So I think a lot of people don't even really understand what their rights are. If you disagree with that you are of course free to campaign for change or to choose a different country with different laws. But you can't pretend that isn't the law.

For myself, I think we should require vaccinations for COVID for all over age 12 who do not have a valid medical exemption. I do not know if we should fine or imprison those who refuse, but there should be substantial consequences and it should not be the free-for-all that we have today. The fact of the matter is that our individual rights in this case are small beer when you consider the amount of suffering and death that can be prevented by mandating vaccinations. And the fact of the matter is that we do accept mandated vaccines for kids to go to school, and also for the privilege of traveling freely.

[Fun CH]

I tend to agree with Clay on forced vaccination, not a road we want to go down. I also agree with John on his right not to be vaccinated.

Also glad to see the right embracing the concept of 'my body my choice' so that should end the division over a women's right to make choices for what's best for her.

However, I do believe that folks without some level of covid immunity do not have the right to expose others to a potentially deadly disease. To that end, their use of public spaces should be restricted if that use poses a risk to others.

For example, Flying on an airplane or even access to airline terminals should require covid immunity proof or medical exemption.

As soon as the vaccines are taken off the category of emergency use, I'm guessing that's where we're headed.

[pasayten]

Note from admin.... If anybody wants their posts deleted or edited, pm me and I will tranfer post ownership to your login id and you can do what you want with the post...

Cheers!

admin (pasayten)

[pasayten]

Post by biglakejudy » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:01 am

There are huge swaths of people that would not be vaccinated anyway. The people who are isolated. (yeah, vaccinate them against their will for some reason), religious reasons, health reasons, I could go on and on. You are simply not going to be able to achieve complete compliance. To state that someone doesn't give a rats arse about the rest is absurd at best.
Judy Brezina

[pasayten]

by wombat » Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:13 am

Mark:
I'm sorry but by implying that everybody who doesn't want to get the COVID vaccine "don't give a rat's arse about others" and then confirming that's what you meant indicates that you don't understand other people's feelings. This is one of the characteristics of a sociopath, by the way.

Gary:
#1: Alf brought up mandating vaccines. David was arguing against letting people make their choice on vaccines. This means using force against those that choose not to get the COVID vaccine.

#2: I suggested it because most people would say they are against banning all but the healthiest foods and allowing even those in only the quantities that result in the highest health and enforcing physical exercise. But if we are forcing people (or even simply shaming them) to do one thing that has a lower impact, it seems reasonable to force (or shame) them to do something that has a higher impact as well.

#3: This is beside the real point, but actually..... It kind of is. When people associate with people who are more obese, they become more obese themselves. When they associate with healthy people, they become more healthy as well. But anyway, the point I was really trying to make is that complaining about people's poor decisions regarding vaccines in terms of the usage and cost of health care they use through their decision yet not addressing the significantly bigger usage and cost of health care they use through their poor health decisions in other ways is a bad argument. Imagine a chain smoker complaining about sunbathers causing the cost of cancer insurance to go up. Seems like a bad argument to me.

#4: Nope. David argued against allowing people the choice to vaccinate against COVID. A better outcome could be had (just considering the health effects if people comply) by mandating exercise, which is one of the dystopian elements in the book "1984". If A is good, and B is better than A, B is good too.

#5: By dismissing the fact that we are spending more effort on a lower return action, you demonstrate that you don't actually care about people's outcomes as much as you care about your own personal illogical fears. And incidentally, bringing up "Orange man bad!" doesn't help your argument.

#6: When I say I have "strong suspicions" in this case I mean nearly as strong as my suspicion that solipsism isn't true and that other people who are similar to me (in that they have their own mind and point of view and feelings and thoughts) If you do actually believe your hypothetical statement about care and political beliefs, it would mean that in your case, care about others goes out the window too.

#7: Again, Alf brought up mandating vaccines and David was arguing against letting people make their choice on vaccines. Both of these mean making a law, which forces them to take an action or ultimately, if they continue to refuse, be either physically forced to do it or killed. Pretty harsh.
Waste Of Money, Brains, And Time
Or:
A short-legged, muscular quadrupedal marsupial.

Clay Chase

[pasayten]

by bobcat » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:52 am

wombat wrote:
> David:
> Are you suggesting that we force people to take actions (examples: Get
> COVID vaccines,eat heathy, exercise) in order to free up medical resources
> for everybody else?...

1. I don't remember anyone suggesting forcing people to take actions..

> Are you complaining that the taxpayers and insurance premium payers are
> footing the bill for the decisions of others who have chosen not to take
> actions that result in healthier outcomes for themselves and others?

2. Why suggest it? It is true. "...result in healthier outcomes..."?

> ...In terms of the average quantity and cost of medical care required for
> failing to do one of those actions and therefore the reduction in medical
> care available for others, COVID doesn't hold a candle to the costs
> associated with obesity...

3. obesity is not contagious.

> ...It sounds like you are in favor of "physical jerks" being a
> forced part of daily life, exactly as written by George Orwell in
> "1984". For the good of society, of course. Are you in favor of
> the flu vaccine being mandatory too? From what I've seen so far, for COVID
> vaccinated people, the flu is riskier than COVID...

4. Putting words in other peoples mouths.

"... You are right we aren't really up to understanding all of the consequences.
> The first and biggest failure in understanding is failing to understand
> what behaviors pose the biggest risks to our health, the health of others,
> and what the cost associated with those decisions are.
>
> As an example, people are afraid of flying on the airlines in the US. The
> odds of dying in a car crash are about 288,000 times higher. Two hundred
> eighty-eight THOUSAND times. (Statistics sourced from a 2018 article on
> cleveland19.com)...

5. Blah blah blah and on and on about the fact that people die of other causes. We all know this is true. In fact everyone that has ever lived has, or will die. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that more than 600,000 Americans have died of a disease that could have been nipped in the bud if we had a competent and responsible leader in the White House that encouraged mask wearing, social distancing and other precautions. Instead he played the whole thing down, didn't wear a mask as a good example and focused on conspiracy theories and blaming the Chinese. If he had encouraged precautions he could have played the hero. He could have claimed precautions as a patriotic duty. New Zealand is a perfect example.



> ...Mark:
> Your comment is inaccurately representing the situation. People who choose
> not to get vaccinated most likely *DO* care about others. You are
> attempting to cast all who choose not to get vaccinated as "those who
> don't care" and continue to assert that they "do not give a rat's
> arse about others". I strongly suspect that this is inaccurate. I
> strongly suspect this because I know someone who has chosen not to get
> vaccinated and over decades of interaction with this person, I think they
> do care about others. A lot. So overall, I think your comment is
> reprehensible in that you are attempting to condemn and vilify people who
> don't want to get vaccinated through an inaccurate representation of their
> thoughts. You really should be ashamed of yourself for posting that...

6. Your "strong suspicions" Are of no value. I could strongly suspect that people care about others until it contradicts their political beliefs. Then care about others goes out the window.


>...For everyone: Despite making statements that are against mandatory
> vaccinations, I am myself vaccinated and I encourage others to get
> vaccinated. I am merely opposed to using the force of law in this case
> when there are significantly riskier actions we don't use the law to
> prohibit...

7. So where did anyone suggest using the force of law?
Gary Ott

[pasayten]

Post by Mark58 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:22 am

I stand by my comment.

Mark Miller

[pasayten]

by wombat » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:18 am

David:
Are you suggesting that we force people to take actions (examples: Get COVID vaccines,eat heathy, exercise) in order to free up medical resources for everybody else?

Are you complaining that the taxpayers and insurance premium payers are footing the bill for the decisions of others who have chosen not to take actions that result in healthier outcomes for themselves and others?

In terms of the average quantity and cost of medical care required for failing to do one of those actions and therefore the reduction in medical care available for others, COVID doesn't hold a candle to the costs associated with obesity.

It sounds like you are in favor of "physical jerks" being a forced part of daily life, exactly as written by George Orwell in "1984". For the good of society, of course. Are you in favor of the flu vaccine being mandatory too? From what I've seen so far, for COVID vaccinated people, the flu is riskier than COVID.

You are right we aren't really up to understanding all of the consequences. The first and biggest failure in understanding is failing to understand what behaviors pose the biggest risks to our health, the health of others, and what the cost associated with those decisions are.

As an example, people are afraid of flying on the airlines in the US. The odds of dying in a car crash are about 288,000 times higher. Two hundred eighty-eight THOUSAND times. (Statistics sourced from a 2018 article on cleveland19.com)

We as a species are focusing on the wrong risks. We ignore things that are incredibly risky and fight to reduce risks that are almost nonexistent.

Another example: I expect you've heard of "stranger danger". The risk that a child is kidnapped by a stranger. Almost everyone who was raised in the US has. But in terms of the chances of it happening, with roughly similar outcomes in terms of chance of death or serious injury, slightly more dangerous is being backed over. By a blue vehicle, which is the 6th most common color. (Based on relative number of blue vehicles and the total number of accidents where children are backed into by a vehicle.) But nobody hears about "blue vehicle in reverse danger" even though it's a higher risk. We spend more effort on 'stranger danger' then we do on all 'vehicles in reverse danger'. But our 'child safety' dollars would be so much better used if we spent them on reducing the risk of being backed over by cars. Heck, they'd be better spent if we spent them on only reducing the danger of being backed over by blue cars. To say nothing about Red, Silver, Gray, Black, or White cars.

So while I agree with your general statement that we are not really up to understanding all of the consequence, I think that using that as an argument in favor of mandating vaccines for COVID while ignoring other dangers that pose significantly higher risk is a bad argument because it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the consequences.

Mark:
Your comment is inaccurately representing the situation. People who choose not to get vaccinated most likely *DO* care about others. You are attempting to cast all who choose not to get vaccinated as "those who don't care" and continue to assert that they "do not give a rat's arse about others". I strongly suspect that this is inaccurate. I strongly suspect this because I know someone who has chosen not to get vaccinated and over decades of interaction with this person, I think they do care about others. A lot. So overall, I think your comment is reprehensible in that you are attempting to condemn and vilify people who don't want to get vaccinated through an inaccurate representation of their thoughts. You really should be ashamed of yourself for posting that.

For everyone: Despite making statements that are against mandatory vaccinations, I am myself vaccinated and I encourage others to get vaccinated. I am merely opposed to using the force of law in this case when there are significantly riskier actions we don't use the law to prohibit.
Waste Of Money, Brains, And Time
Or:
A short-legged, muscular quadrupedal marsupial.

Clay Chase

[pasayten]

by Mark58 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:57 am

You're right David. Unfortunately those who don't care just don't care. Instead they make various personal rights/1st amendment/2nd amendment/etc. arguments depending on the situation. The least they could do is be honest and say that they just do not give a rat's arse about others. Very Darwinian.

Mark Miller

[pasayten]

by ed » Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:56 am

"Here's an idea: If you want to get vaccinated and wear a mask that is your choice to make."

We're all in this together. Besides the great points already listed here. Here's a quick analogy to explain why your idea is fatally flawed.

Every time the virus reproduces there's a tiny chance that the virus will mutate into a more severe virus that side steps existing vaccines. Think of every viral reproduction as a lottery ticket.

The more lottery tickets you buy, the greater your odds of winning! In this case, winning is producing a variant that is more deadly, contagious and immune to vaccines. If you are unvaccinated, when you get COVID you will provide millions and millions of lottery tickets. One of those could be a "winner"! Those lottery tickets also make you eligible to give someone else the virus. The more of those tickets you have, the more free tickets you can give to someone else. If they too are unvaccinated then THEY will also get the chance to create millions of lottery tickets too.

The more lottery tickets we collectively get, the more changes to "win!". Remember, in this case "winning" means creating a more deadly and contagious virus.

If, however, you are vaccinated. Even if you do get COVID your viral load... AKA your number of lottery tickets, will be much lower.

The science (and math) behind how viruses spread is somewhat complicated but it's generally well understood. You should consider trusting the experts on this one.

Be patriotic and stop buying us all lottery tickets for a lottery we don't want to win.
Ed Menendez - Twisp

[pasayten]

Post by mr_coffee » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:08 pm

Gonzo'57 wrote:
> Here's an idea: If you want to get vaccinated and wear a mask that is your
> choice to make. If some of us wish to take our chances by not getting
> vaccinated and not wearing masks, leave us alone, that is our choice to
> make.

That sounds good in theory. But the difference between theory in practice is bigger in practice than theory would expect. In the presence of a communicable disease your choices inevitably have an effect on others.

* Many people, including all children under the age of 12 and anyone who cannot get vaccinated because of health reasons, are at risk because of your choices. The current wave seems to be causing more serious disease in children.

* Hospitals and doctors offices are swamped by an influx of COVID-19 cases caused by unvaccinated people exercising their free choices. That means there are fewer health care resources left for those of us who are vaccinated. I already know of people who are having treatments postponed because of the current surge. So you've harmed those people by choosing not to get vaccinated or wear a mask.

* We are diverting approximately $300 billion a year to bail out health insurance providers and hospitals for COVID-19 related costs. So if you get very sick or if you transmit the disease to someone who gets very sick you are costing me and other honest taxpaying citizens money.

* By allowing yourself to be an active disease vector, you increase the probability that there will be more variants of this virus. Those variants might cause more serious disease (it looks like that is happening right now) and might be more likely to evade vaccines in the future. So your choices might not only make other people sick, they might make them much sicker than otherwise.

To be fair, very few of us have experienced the reality of a rapidly communicable disease with a significant fatality rate in our lifetime. So we aren't really up to understanding all of the consequences. And there is a very human bias inside of all of us that says, "This has never happened in my experience, so it cannot be happening now." The point is that if we are going to get through this we all need to kind of suck it up and work together, even if we've never had to do anything like that before.
David Bonn