What are we doing?

[pasayten]

In addition to guns, we also have to contend with knives, fists, and pencils in today's U.S. violent culture society...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/by ... li=BBnbfcL

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/bu ... 1cf40e2be1

https://news.yahoo.com/three-people-dea ... 40681.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/docto ... i=BB141NW3

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/sl ... 5e6eb5854c

https://news.yahoo.com/teen-beaten-deat ... 00941.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/boy-8 ... 2d46ca2bcc

[Rideback]

In 2020 Oklahoma passed a law that the state would not allow Red Flag laws to be upheld in the state.

Dorankj, you still haven't answered the question of what laws you would be in favor of seeing passed.

[dorankj]

I never said I opposed any red flag laws! You guys constantly make things up and pretend I want to kill women and babies and everything else and then say I’m responsible for your fantasy.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... e=bookmark

This is why we believe they want to take away our guns, some are honest about it!

[Rideback]

Dorankj, there you go again
'So every single one of us law abiding gun owners are 18 yo heavy dope smoking abandoned by their parents isolated freaks who justify killing third graders because we think the principle of government not controlling everyone by disarming everyone is a good idea? Wow! Quite the broad brush you use there.'

You rewrote what I said to fit your pretzel logic and take yourself off the hook. That's no way to have a conversation.

So, how many more people have to be killed by gun abusers before you agree to Red Flag laws?
What laws would you be in favor of to help protect the police and civilians?

[dorankj]

So every single one of us law abiding gun owners are 18 yo heavy dope smoking abandoned by their parents isolated freaks who justify killing third graders because we think the principle of government not controlling everyone by disarming everyone is a good idea? Wow! Quite the broad brush you use there.

[Rideback]

Yes, which all comes down to access and thinking back to a comment PAL made about 'wanting to be a hero' I have to think she's onto something. The gun culture of the NRA wants to portray its followers as the individuals who will protect us against King George's army and that has morphed into incidents like J6. But along with that 'hero' paradigm came access to people who learned they could just reach for their AR15 in their home and use it to shoot their grandmother in the face then drive to their local elementary school and shoot it up.

Whatever the reasons, guns are not the answer and making them more accessible only puts more police and civilians in harm's way.

[pasayten]

Not just the NRA... Hollywood, tv, video games, and even the recent political climate of in your face lies have certainly helped create the gun culture and confrontational climate.

'This can really happen anywhere, and it's very scary.' Witnesses describe how an ordinary day turned deadly at an Oklahoma medical clinic
By Aya Elamroussi, CNN
Updated 3:32 AM ET, Fri June 3, 2022

(CNN)For the dozens of people who were seeking care at an Oklahoma medical facility on Wednesday, it was a regular afternoon that turned into a nightmare within minutes when a gunman opened fire.

About three hours earlier, Michael Louis had purchased an AR-15-style rifle, and he used the weapon to unleash a horrifying attack at Tulsa's Saint Francis Hospital -- killing four people before turning the weapon on himself.

Witnesses described the explosion of panic and terror as the shooting unfolded just after 4:50 p.m. local time.
"Police were everywhere in the parking lot, up and down the surrounding blocks," said Debra Proctor, who was in another building on the campus for an appointment when she heard the sirens.

Kalen Davis also saw police cars surrounding the building. A video she captured showed officers running with their weapons drawn.
"I just knew that it was a shooting situation because I saw police running with rifles," Davis told CNN. "That's when I got emotional."

The mass shooting is among the latest instances nationwide of first responders and civilians coming face-to-face with the threat of gun violence in public places. It comes more than two weeks after a racist assault at a supermarket in Buffalo, New York, and a bloody attack at a church in California. Nine days ago, there was a heartbreaking massacre at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas.

Lachelle Nathan, who was visiting the Tulsa facility with her daughter-in-law and grandchildren for a doctor's appointment, expressed concern about the lack of safety after being so close to another mass shooting.

"It's awful; it's sad. My daughter-in-law is from Buffalo, so now it's so close to home. It's not even safe if you come outside anymore, you know?" Nathan told CNN affiliate KTUL.

Her daughter-in-law echoed those fearful sentiments.

"You can't even go to a store. You can't even go to school. Now, you can't go to the doctor?" she said. "You see it on TV, but you don't think it's actually going to happen right in front of your eyes. So this is a wake-up call for my kids, this can really happen anywhere, and it's very scary."

The shooter intended to kill a doctor who had performed back surgery on him on May 19 because he was experiencing pain following the procedure, Tulsa police chief Wendell Franklin said Thursday during a news conference.
Louis was released from the hospital on May 24 and afterward contacted his surgeon, Dr. Preston Phillips, to complain about pain, Franklin said. And on May 31, Louis saw the surgeon for further treatment, police said.
On Wednesday, the day of the attack, Louis called the surgeon again and asked for help. At around 2 p.m., Louis legally bought an AR-15-style rifle, police said.

Just after 4:50 p.m. Wednesday, police received the first 911 call of an active shooter in the facility.
Louis shot Phillips along with three other people he encountered, officials said.
Police believe the last gunshot was fire around 4:58 p.m.

"As officers were calling out 'Tulsa police' and advancing toward a suspect location, they heard a gunshot. We believe that was the final gunshot with the suspect taking his own life," Franklin said.
Louis had a letter in his possession that "made it clear that he came in with the intent to kill Dr. Phillips and anyone who got in his way," Franklin said.
"He blamed Dr. Phillips for the ongoing pain following the surgery," Franklin said, adding the letter shows the "clear motive."

What we know about the victims
The other victims -- Dr. Stephanie Husen, receptionist Amanda Glenn and patient William Love -- just happened to be in the shooter's way when he attempted to kill the surgeon, Franklin said.
Phillips was "a wonderful, gentle, kind person with an infectious smile and kind word for everyone," Sandy Thompson told CNN.

Thompson, who met Phillips at their local tennis club, has known the 59-year-old surgeon for about five years and had just seen him last month.
"He made the world a better place and Preston's presence will be deeply missed," Thompson said.
Husen, 48, a doctor of osteopathic medicine, earned her undergraduate degree at the University of Oklahoma, where she was a member of the Chi Omega Sorority.
"Our hearts are with the family and loved ones who lost such an incredible woman. She was known and loved by so many and will always be remembered," the chapter wrote on social media.
Love, 73, was a patient at the Warren Clinic, and police said he died protecting his wife, Deborah. The couple would have celebrated their 55th wedding anniversary in August, police said.
Glenn, 40, was a receptionist at the clinic.
She was also the mother of two boys, her friend Amy Pennington told CNN, adding: "She was a hard worker, kind soul, and would do anything for you."

[Rideback]

We're the same age, never owned a gun, don't intend to. Over the years I've literally been kidnapped by pirates, shot at multiple times and have protected our family's children.

The NRA is the difference between the 60's and now. They have created, nurtured and exploited a gun culture that never existed until the last 30 years. It has given them power, sway and a whopping big bank account. Thankfully they did overreach, thanks to Wayne LaPierre's greed and the Russian intrusion so that they face bankruptcy.

[pasayten]

Pasayten, are you saying there were more guns in the 60's?

Never said that... Just that there were less restrictions... People and society have changed with their desensitization of violence and inherit consequences... It's now a people/person problem, not a gun problem.

I am 74 y/o and have owned guns since 1962... Never a handgun until society in the U.S. changed in the last 10-20 years... Now I do, along with a concealed carry permit... I feel the need to have it for safety and protection when traveling outside of the Valley in out current society in the U.S. Sad commentary on where we are at as a society really.



Picture for the mouse who seems to like them a lot...

School children's class in gun safety, Indiana, 1956.

Hardware store and gunsmith, Dodge City 1872.

[dorankj]

Maybe it goes with my job? It used to be a pretty universal trait, but whatever. In other unimportant information, what’s the price of tea in China?

[PAL]

Ken, you are aching to be a hero. Sounds like you have quite a fantasy going about yourself.

[dorankj]

More lies there Mickey! (really you’re just a clown) I protect women’s rights to control their own body, I just have a problem when they want to kill another body. I will “enjoy my man card” or any other card if it means I will save anyone from deranged killers that your side constantly releases and defunds police. You cowards will hide in your safe space and pretend to care while you never do anything actually meaningful. In all those places remember when seconds count cops are minutes away! So yeah, if I can stop the situation or protect people from evil I will, even sacrifice my life for others. But you don’t really understand any of this in your elitist, over-educated idiot bubble.

[Rideback]

The conversation we're having

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/661161/

Pasayten, are you saying there were more guns in the 60's? The NRA has changed its stance considerably in the last 40; what once was an organization that taught gun safety classes morphed into a political animal that helped promote gun manufacturers' products, became a huge lobbyist organization to PR gun ownership no matter what. The NRA even worked with the Russian disinformation crews, look at Don Jr's role with the NRA during '16.

[dorankj]

Now the masks are coming off! So simply being 18 or having back pain gets you banned from owning any guns. You may cowardly be led like sheep to the slaughter but many others of us will not! And when they come for you, I will be there to defend your rights.

[pasayten]

So what should be done about violent movies and violent video games that are desensitizing youth? Even promoting them to do similar violent acts... Should movies and games be more strictly regulated? Should parents be held accountable for their young adults actions? Maybe even when they are 18-21 y/o? Should the age to join the military be raised? Lots of issues here driving the increasing violence in our society... Guns have been around longer than the increases in violence we are seeing... Guns were easier to get in the 60's, including semi-automatics, yet we did not see the violence we see now. Society and people have changed... guns some, but not as much.

[Rideback]

If the 18 year olds and the guy with back pain hadn't been able to buy guns in the first place, notably without background checks there would be no need to have armed guards putting their lives in the line of fire at every doorway. The armed good guy argument has fallen apart.

[dorankj]

If an 18 yo idiot can go to a school intent to shoot children I certainly will put an adult responsible firearm owner up if no other options exist! That's the point of having the ability to own whatever firearm you're most comfortable and confident will take care of whatever situation you believe may happen. I own a decent size generator, not because I believe the PUD is horrible at providing power (quite the opposite) but the power does go out sometimes and I intend to handle the situation as I see fit. If we could pass a law to stop evil I really think we should!

[PAL]

Excellant points David and Rideback. It seems the bad people shooters have become embolden now.

[Rideback]

In yesterday's Tulsa, OK shooting the shooter took down 4 civilians with an AR15 he had purchased just a couple of hours before the shooting and then killed himself with a handgun he had just purchased a day before. Apparently OK doesn't have background check laws in place or the store owner didn't follow them.

If insurance were required of every purchase the timeline may have changed his mind.

This shooter apparently didn't appreciate the surgery he had and was experiencing back pain. He wasn't suffering from a diagnosed mental illness, he was simply in pain so shooting his doctor seemed like a remedy to him. He bought a gun, drove to the hospital and killed 4 people then shot himself. How does that preserve the right to have an AR15?

Surely the people who want to be able to own and shoot an AR15 would be angry at every one of these shooters for causing the public to be so outraged that they want to burden the AR15 owners with more oversight. But then again, those same AR15 owners haven't managed to curtail the bad guys with their good guys, instead we just have bad guys coming out of the woodwork every day now. And where's an acknowledgment that the good guys are real people with families who have enough sh** on their plates without having to put their lives on the line because a guy has back pain? Law enforcement officers aren't expendable.

[mister_coffee]

Note in the previous post there was a typo, I wrote "underestimate" when I meant "overestimate."

[mister_coffee]

Most people wildly overestimate their skills in an actual survival situation. At best using a firearm effectively in such conditions requires a lot of practice and developing perishable skills, as our own reflexes tend to work against our using a weapon safely and effectively in such a situation.

Law enforcement officers have far more and better training than civilians typically do, and they make horrifying and tragic mistakes in a hairball all the time. It is hard to see an argument about civilians would do better.

There is a big difference between owning a gun and knowing how to handle one in a fight. Most people, in my opinion, are only a danger to themselves and others if they have a firearm in such a situation.

[Rideback]

There's a distinct difference between stopping a shooting in progress by one armed officer who went against orders of the incident commander while 19 other officers obeyed the command to hold off a breach to save the children. One officer made a difference but his action does not compensate nor erase the failure in Uvalde much less the failure nationwide for these shooters to have access to the AR 15's. The whack a mole perspective of addressing these incidents has already disproven the premise that a good guy with a gun is the answer.

[pasayten]

The good guys with guns are losing. In Uvalde for example,21 dead good guys and one dead bad guy.

A good guy with a gun did save lives... Need more like him...

Uvalde hero Border Patrol agent speaks out on 'complete chaos,' rushing in to save students
By Charles CreitzPublished June 1, 2022 10:48AMCrime and Public SafetyFOX News

The heroic Border Patrol agent who rushed into Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, during the mass shooting last week spoke out to Fox News on Tuesday.

Border Patrol agent Jacob Albarado was off duty, he told "The Ingraham Angle," as Uvalde lies about 80 miles from the Coahuila border town of Piedras Negras.

Albarado said he recently left an engagement to get his hair cut near the school, and recounted soon hearing word of the shooting from his wife, Trisha, a teacher at Robb — whom he later said narrowly escaped shooter Salvador Ramos.

"There's an active shooter… Help… I love you," Trisha Albarado texted.

Agent Albarado procured his barber's shotgun and raced on foot to the school.

"I just announced who I was and made my way toward my wife's room," he recalled. "I just saw a whole bunch of kids running out, running off campus, jumping through the windows, cops breaking windows."

He described the scene as "complete chaos, pretty much," adding he was finally able to speak to his wife on the phone after she escaped her classroom and joined others who fled to a nearby funeral home.

While his wife had escaped, Jacob Albarado said he was also concerned about his daughter Jayda, a student at Robb.

Jayda Albarado was reportedly locked in a bathroom while a law enforcement tactical team was forming to enter the school wing where Ramos was holed up.

Jacob Albarado began clearing all the classrooms in Jayda's wing, armed with the barber's shotgun. Dozens of children fled as the rooms were cleared.

"It was just complete chaos. Everybody was concerned for their child," he recalled. "I was able to get on campus… I wasn't just trying to save my child, I was trying to get as many people out of there as I could."

He told Fox News his daughter is faring well "for the most part" after the shooting, though added she lost some of her friends in the murders.

He added that Ramos bypassed his wife's classroom, focusing instead on rooms on the other side of the same hallway.

Jacob Albarado thanked Americans who have offered their condolences for the Uvalde community, adding that companies like Walmart and small businesses, including BBQ restaurants as far as Alabama, have been sending food and support.

"Everyone has given a helping hand," he said. "You would never think such people would come out of the woodwork and help out."

[Rideback]

There's not a whole lot of daylight between the two pieces. They both agree that accountability and enforcement need to be on the table.

[pasayten]

Another perspective...

Italy Has a Gun Culture but No Mass Shootings—Here’s Why
Elizabeth Heath - 17h ago

I was born and raised in the United States, then moved to Italy in 2009, when I was in my early 40s. In the 12 years since, there have been 246 mass shootings in the U.S. (as of March 26, 2021 and defining a mass shooting as an event where four or more people, not including the shooter, were shot and killed). A total of 1,401 people lost their lives, and close to 1,000 people were shot and wounded. In Italy, during that same 12-year period, there was one attempted mass shooting—a racially motivated drive-by incident that targeted a group of six African immigrants in 2018. It was terrible for sure, but fortunately, there were no fatalities.

That's not to say that Italy doesn't have a gun culture; it does. Because so much of the country remains rural, it's a nation of avid hunters. While exact numbers are hard to come by, in 2017 there were an estimated 8.6 million guns in Italy or 14.4 guns for every 100 people per the Small Arms Survey. (In contrast, there are an estimated 120.5 guns for every 100 people in the US.) While an increasing number of guns in Italy are owned for self-defense—government data shows that permits for these types of guns increased by 50 percent from 2014 to 2019—many are used for hunting or shooting sports. We see the same movies and TV programs from the U.S. that show murders and gun violence as a routine part of life, and little kids play with toy guns, just like they do in the States. Yet we don't have mass shootings, and we've never had a school shooting—ever.

A look at Italy's gun laws goes a long way toward explaining why the country has been able to avoid the mass shooting tragedies that afflict the U.S.

Who can own a gun in Italy?
Anyone over 18 can own a gun in Italy, as long as they meet certain criteria. They have to apply for a firearms license, take a firearms safety course at a gun range, and have no criminal record. Their physician has to sign a certificate affirming that the potential gun owner does not suffer from drug addiction or mental health issues. These rules also apply if you inherit or are otherwise gifted a gun.

After that, new gun owners must register the firearm with their local police station within 72 hours of taking possession of it. If gun owners sell or give a gun to someone else, they too have to notify local authorities within 72 hours of the gun leaving their hands. To carry the gun outside your home you need either a hunting license or a sporting license (to take the gun to a shooting range), and you can have the gun in your vehicle or on your person only when you are engaged in or en route to or from one of those activities.

Concealed carry permits exist in Italy but are very difficult to obtain. You have to prove that your line of work puts you at enough risk that you need to carry a concealed weapon for your own safety. And this license has to be renewed every year.

Compare that to the United States, where specific gun laws vary by state; in Texas, one of the states with less stringent restrictions, there's no state registry of guns, meaning you don't need to register your gun if you inherit it; there's no background check required with private sales; and anyone with a standard gun license may carry a rifle openly.

Who is restricted from gun ownership in Italy?
While persons 18 and up who are not convicted criminals can apply for a gun purchase permit and usually obtain one, any red flags in their behavior could result in their firearms being seized by local authorities. For example, I know of two separate incidents where individuals in my town verbally or physically threatened others. When the carabinieri (local police) were alerted to these threats, they contacted the individuals and ordered them to come to the police station and turn over their weapons. (The police knew which weapons they owned because they were registered.) In both cases, the individuals peacefully surrendered their guns rather than risk arrest. At least a year passed before they were able to reclaim their weapons, and they did so only after they received a doctor's certificate attesting to their mental stability.

What types of guns are legal in Italy?

The following "common" firearms are legal in Italy:

handguns
sports shooting guns, such as skeet shotguns
hunting rifles and shotguns
antique or historical firearms and single-shot muzzle-loader replicas
low-muzzle energy airguns

In a large number of the U.S.'s mass shootings, the perpetrator used an AR-15 or similar semi-automatic rifle. Nine states and the District of Columbia have bans or restrictions on assault-style weapons; they are legal in the remaining 41 states. These firearms are not legal in Italy, nor are any other semi-automatic or fully automatic rifles or handguns. Noise suppressors, or silencers, are also illegal, along with any kind of military or police-grade weapons.

No right to bear arms
The Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees the right to bear arms, is a well-established point of debate when it comes to introducing new gun laws in the U.S. Here in Italy, no such law or amendment exists and never has, though the Republic of Italy's constitution only dates back to 1948. That's one of the reasons why gun laws that might seem restrictive to U.S. gun advocates are taken in much more in stride here.

A social safety net
After 12 years of living in Italy, I can definitely say that the country has its flaws. But one thing Italy has going for it is a fairly broad and dense social safety net, which takes care of its most vulnerable citizens. We have a national healthcare system that, while imperfect, ensures that people receive medical attention, including for mental health disorders and needed medications—largely free of charge. (Critics of universal healthcare will argue that we pay higher taxes, and we do. But we don't pay for private health insurance, and no one sacrifices treatment, loses their home, or goes bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills.)

Studies have established a link between social welfare programs and reductions in violence, perhaps because when people's most basic needs of shelter, healthcare, and sustenance are met, they are less prone to violence. In Italy, the national healthcare system—combined with rigid protocols for gun ownership—make it less likely that violent or mentally disturbed people will fall through the cracks or get their hands on guns.

Italy is not without violence
It would be inaccurate to paint a picture of Italy as free of violence. Home invasions, auto theft, and other robberies all happen here, as do rape and murder, though at rates far lower than in the U.S. Organized crime is alive and well here, and there are active black markets for firearms, weapons, drugs, and human trafficking. Post–World War II, multiple-victim massacres in Italy have been the work of terrorists or Mafia, and bombs, rather than guns, have most often been their weapon of choice. With some exceptions, targets were political or military, or were players in internecine Mafia wars. But on a day-to-day basis, Italians do not live in fear of gun violence. Every time we send our kids to school, to a sporting event, or to a shopping mall, we don't worry that a shooter might strike.

Could it happen here? Anything is possible. But gun laws, a social welfare system, and a different national mentality with regard to gun ownership mean that for now, it's a lot less likely.