When does life begin

Rideback
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:53 am
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

Of course if we put everything on pause while we wait for definitive answers there's an element of laziness creeping into our abilities to exercise our intellectual capacities. Just as in all scientific theories and processes, the element of growth of a theory is an open door as more data, observations and technology are put on the table.

In the meantime, we work with what we have and acknowledge that it's important to accommodate the civil rights aspect of the questions.

PAL
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

Fantastically intelligent and thoughtful reply David.

Pearl Cherrington
User avatar
mister_coffee
Posts: 815
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:35 pm
Location: Winthrop, WA
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by mister_coffee »

Like all philosophical discussions, this one involves great clouds of fog, great blasts of hot air, and poorly considered terminology.

Actually defining "life" is not trivial. Certain seeds can be dormant for many years (in one known case over 1300 years). Are those seeds "alive"?

The trivial answer to the question "When does life begin?" is "Life began over 4 billion years ago and has never really stopped."

Individual cells are also alive. Obviously unfertilized human eggs and sperm are alive.

More precise questions include: (1) when does a conceptus (a fertilized egg) become a human? and (2) what rights do we grant a conceptus and unborn human?

Those aren't simple questions, and it is unlikely that one-sized-fits-all answers on either side of the discussion are going to produce results that are tolerable to anyone.

:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
PAL
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

Shouln't, should, judging. One size fits all to you Ken.

Pearl Cherrington
dorankj
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:08 pm
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

You all are entitled to your opinion as am I but you might not get your way (and you very well may be incorrect and shouldn’t get your way). I imagine your wailing and gnashing of teeth will continue on more than this issue!

Rideback
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:53 am
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

Good posts and information, thanks Mickey & PAL.
And yes, yesterday's march was eye opening, full of good energy and the promise of continuing support!

PAL
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

Ask any woman, young or old, if she has ever felt "pressured" to have sex. I bet almost everyone of them would say yes. Men can be quite relentless and persuasive in their quest. Their urge is strong. These are not rapes, per se, but in the heat of passion, women give in or are talked into it. Or they say no, but their urges overtake them too, so then they may go against their own judgement.

Thanks for posting about the violence and what many women face.

Good points about what the Constitution doesn't mention.
Yesterday's March was well attended. It was mentioned that women don't usually go casually into this decision about her body.

Yeah, guess what, "just because responsibility prior to conception wasn’t exercised" , condoms break, IUD's can fail, methods can fail which can result in an unplanned pregnancy.
And as we know, birth control is left largly up to women.

Pearl Cherrington
Rideback
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:53 am
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

Yes, you are constantly referring to it as addressing an 'inconvenience', look at your posts.
The canard that abortion is not mentioned in the Constitution is laughable. The Constitution doesn't mention marriage, voting rights for women, minorities (including Native Americans), civil rights or getting a driver's license either.

You are also misinterpreting the conversations here and keep pulling out the victim card. No one here has said that you are a bad person, but most are saying that your arguments have flaws. There's a difference.

dorankj
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:08 pm
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

Point of fact, I did not say that, you did. You are desperate to say I’m the monster but it’s your position that is barbaric. No euphemism or pretend logic or odd twisting of definition will change that. There is entirely too many babies killed just because responsibility prior to conception wasn’t exercised and there is actually no “right” to abortion in the constitution. The ‘right to privacy’ doesn’t get there otherwise I could kill my child “privately” in my house any time and tell everyone to leave me alone. Roe was wrongly decided on faulty reasoning (just like Dred Scott) and needs to be overturned federally and returned to the states. I’m sure you’ll be able to kill all the babies you want here in Washington, maybe more!

Rideback
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:53 am
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

And there's your use of the word 'convenience' again. By using it your objective is to lump all abortions together with no recognition of differing circumstances. The new states' laws being enacted and indeed the Alito draft does the same thing, it's saying ALL abortions, no exceptions including rape, incest or the life of the mother. No matter how many times you repeat 'inconvenience' it will never mean that all abortions fall into that category.

dorankj
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:08 pm
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

“Feeling pain” is in no way the sole arbiter of what may be killed! As was pointed out earlier, a tiny fraction of abortions are due to the mother’s life being in jeopardy. Religion or not, killing humans for convenience is abhorrent.

Rideback
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:53 am
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

Fact checking abortion myths, including fetuses feel pain

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/06/10966761 ... ct-checked

'State legislatures have been moving to adopt 20-week abortion bans, with abortion opponents claiming fetuses can feel pain at that point. Roughly a third of states have implemented an abortion ban around 20 weeks.

But this contradicts widely accepted medical research from 2005. This study, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, concluded that a fetus is not capable of experiencing pain until somewhere between 29 or 30 weeks.

Researchers wrote that fetal awareness of pain requires "functional thalamocortical connections." Those thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 and 30 weeks' gestational age, but the capacity for pain perception comes later.'

PAL
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

Keep in mind that late term abortions are not a cavalier decision in most cases, as has been pointed out and in numerous articles. Many women, who are at that late a term usually want the baby. But then cirmumstances arrive where the mother's health and life is at stake or other conditions where the baby is not viable. In that situation nobody wins. Let the mother and baby both die? For those that say no exceptions. They are wrong.

Pearl Cherrington
Rideback
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:53 am
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

Babies start to 'kick' in the womb at 16-25 weeks.

dorankj
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:08 pm
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

These arguments are so twisted especially coming from ‘intellectual’ thought. So if we have delivered pain eliminaters (like morphine) to a patient we can then kill them if they’re inconvenient because they won’t feel any pain? Makes absolutely no sense. Any mother who describes the feeling of their child thrashing around in her womb and the incredible interaction she can have will assure you that that is an alive being and has so called ‘feelings’, that’s the expert I believe!

Rideback
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:53 am
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

I'll let the professionals debunk your misguided premise. https://journals.lww.com/neurotodayonli ... in_.3.aspx

But 2nd, it's important to recognize that the article is about how the Jewish religion perceives the 'building of a child' and the actual moment when that child becomes human enough to receive a soul. That's elemental to their beliefs and their beliefs are important to this journey.

dorankj
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:08 pm
Contact:

Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

When you see a child recoil from the abortionists tools coming to kill it en utero you KNOW life starts prior to the head presentation!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests