When does life begin

dorankj
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Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

Ahh, the old ‘not on topic’ line when your argument (also not on topic!) gets refuted. You extreme (I get to put the same superlatives in you all do) lefties, if not for double standards you have no standards at all!

I believe the woman’s name is Dr. Carol Swain and she appears to be an African American, is she just a “political hack” who we should just dismiss?

Rideback
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Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

you do realize that your link has nothing to do with the switch in the platform, right? Or that Dennis Prager is a well known political hack that wouldn't know the truth if it sat on him.

Rideback
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Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

You're making a common historical mistake when you bring up slavery and the Democrats. The mistake is that parties switched. The Democratic party and Republican party switched platforms.

https://www.livescience.com/34241-democ ... forms.html

realoldtimer
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Re: When does life begin

Post by realoldtimer »

George was pretty accurate here:"The owners of this country know the truth that it's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."

He pointed out a big problem with anti-abortionist' philosophy.

From: https://www.alternet.org/2022/05/george ... aign=10505

"For Apatow, that line above resonated because we are watching an effort by today's Republican Party to move our country backwards. Apatow and his co-director Michael Bonfiglio made an inspired choice with the film to include long chunks of Carlin's material — as opposed to cutting it down to simply a setup and a punchline. That allows you to enjoy Carlin's material in full comedian glory. For example, you can watch Carlin talk at length on abortion and the right's focus on forcing women to carry a fetus but not caring about the women or child that is born."

======================================================

Beyond being against the termination of a life, or a life forming,
It seems 'they' want to punish women for getting pregnant.

dorankj
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Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

Oh Mickey, you’re a special one!

dorankj
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Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

Interesting how you dems are going back to your roots. It was once “sanctioned by law” to own slaves and you dems insisted that protected your ability to continue doing so, you even created your own ‘country’ and fought a civil war to maintain that ‘right’. Thank God some people like me fought that war and changed those ‘rights’ so you couldn’t keep owning other people as property! Some things with you guys never change, hopefully some of this law will change.

PAL
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Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

*"Recent estimates suggest that rape conception happens between 25,000 and 32,000 times each year in the U.S"

Such a small percentage. These women don't matter. Make sure they have to go through a double trauma of halving to bear their own father's child or rape by friend or stranger. (This is stated with sarcasm)
I don't want to assume Ken agrees about the incest or rape thing. I would think as a caring person he would not want any woman to have to go throught that.

Pearl Cherrington
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mister_coffee
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Re: When does life begin

Post by mister_coffee »

Honestly watching this debate is like watching two brick walls argue with each other. People have pretty much made up their minds on this topic and it is very unlikely any minds are going to be changed.

Having said the above, it is noteworthy that about two-thirds of Americans think that abortion should be safe and legal under at least some circumstances. Of course those who oppose abortion will argue that what two-thirds of Americans think on this topic is irrelevant.

As for myself, I think it is pretty clear that the rights of a mother are superior to the rights of her unborn child, with caveats. I think the "caveats" are where things get sticky.

:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
PAL
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Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

We're talking to you, Ken.

Pearl Cherrington
Rideback
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Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

Wow, you so don't get it when you equate a man killing a pregnant woman or a child with a woman's right to abort a fetus. Abortions are medical procedures sanctioned by law; they reflect action based on specific criteria, including viability.

PAL
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Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

He's not listening. Ah but these are babies being killed, right? So how many people that didn't vax and didn't mask kill babies in the womb, the mother, or children already born?
Absurd question isn't it, but no murder charges have been brought for this kind of activity.
These choices are between a woman and her doctor and are about to be nullified. Whereas people that didn't mask and vax had a choice and not expose children, the unborn to Covid.
KInd of scewy logic, huh, but I'm getting how people can turn these arguments around.

Last edited by PAL on Sun May 22, 2022 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pearl Cherrington
dorankj
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Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

You’re exactly right, women do have a right (and so do I) for control over their body (including for religious reasons). The question at hand is whether they get exclusive and absolute right to kill another body! Can I decide to kill a baby at any age? If I kill a pregnant woman I will be charged with 2 murders (rightly so). We don’t protect life simply because it’s desired. HOW MANY BABIES MUST DIE BEFORE THE DEATH COUNT MATTERS TO YOU?

Rideback
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Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

How many women must die before the death count matters to you?

PAL
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Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

Here is a percentage figure of risks from pregnancy. Although most pregnancies go well, there should be medical care in place, especially for poor women and women of color.

Most pregnancies progress without incident. But approximately 8 percent of all pregnancies involve complications that, if left untreated, may harm the mother or the baby. While some complications relate to health problems that existed before pregnancy, others occur unexpectedly and are unavoidable.

4 Common Pregnancy Complications | Johns Hopkins Medicinehttps://www.hopkinsmedicine.org › conditions-and-diseases

The abortion rate in the US has decreased over the last 2 yrs. Not as many performed and yes that is good for all concerned. But women still need to have that choice over their bodies. Not lying men and one lying woman on the highest court in the land. They lied.

Pearl Cherrington
dorankj
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Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

Literally, your headline statement has nothing to do with your attached article! Women may have many issues with unsafe abortions, doesn’t that indicate abortion may be the problem? There are extremely few health risks to the mother from pregnancy, there are all kinds of problems when they try to terminate that baby both physically and psychologically. Maybe we should try for fewer abortions!

Rideback
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Re: When does life begin

Post by Rideback »

Awhile back you made the comment that the overturning of Roe was a good thing, it had been based on poor opinions and that it was a good thing to see that abortion would be turned back to the states.

Since you wrote that there's been 26 states that have created anti abortion laws that are just waiting for Roe to be overturned. Many of those states have laws on the books already that became moot when SCOTUS decided Roe. Those laws are called 'trigger laws' and they will be triggered at the moment that Roe is overturned.

So, my point is that without Roe guiding the nation we're on the cusp of seeing radical anti abortion laws come into play in 26+ states. Those laws were written decades ago and they don't take into consideration civil rights, privacy rights and most certainly religious rights.

PAL
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Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

I'm only trying to educate and discuss. You are making assumptions about us making assumptions.
The link Mickey sent is true. We know what 26 states want to outlaw.
I am so glad you can guarantee no one will be arrested for miscarriage. She will be if there is any suspicion of her doing something to herself.
Some of the justices and some of the GOP politicians are crazy about the laws concerning abortion.
Talk about a foaming frenzy when you were being anti mask and anti vax. The insurrection was a "foaming frenzy". I am assuming you did not agree with that, but you may support some of the politicians that did.
You better believe we women especially, are riled up and we won't stop. So get used to it.
And as another poster points out, what about the support after a child is born. The Reps. don't want to have b health care for children, the child tax credit bill and make services harder to get for poorer women.
You talk high and mighty but we all must remember it is just your opinion. A minority opinion doing away with abortion.

Pearl Cherrington
dorankj
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Re: When does life begin

Post by dorankj »

You guys are ridiculous, I’ve never justified my positions on this subject with my religion! I have no idea who “Q-anon” is and don’t care what he/they/it think. You all project YOUR biases and inane rhetoric on me and then try to hold me (and your political enemies) accountable to your crazy positions. I don’t support any of your ridiculous assumptions about what will be outlawed, I’m only referring to what SCOTUS is actually arguing. I guarantee no-one will be arrested for a mis-carriage, that’s nuts! You are being riled into a foaming frenzy by people and institutions desperate to get you riled up so you’re easier to manipulate and then the cherry on top is to tell you that’s what the ‘other side’ is doing to justify it!

PAL
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Re: When does life begin

Post by PAL »

We are using what may seem like extreme rhetoric to you Ken, but we are seeing women’s rights being eroded before our eyes. A woman’s body sometimes does things that she may not have control over like miscarriage, still births, her life in jeopardy . These laws are making her a criminal or suspect.
And...
America’s growing fault lines
May 20, 2022 at 2:53 pm Updated May 20, 2022 at 3:00 pm


By
Alice Rothchild
Special to The Times
I came of age before abortion was legal, when birth control choices were limited and not widely available. This meant that every heterosexual encounter was potentially fraught with the risk of pregnancy, the ruining of a woman’s aspirations, an ill-timed wedding, the whispered fears of back alley abortions, more acute for poor women and women of color. I am of the generation that fought for and celebrated the recognition that women have the right to control their own bodies; to choose education, work, relationships, children or not; to live their lives with options and autonomy long denied by biology and culture. We called this progress.
As a practicing obstetrician-gynecologist for almost 40 years, I witnessed women making these very personal choices, each in their own private way. The issue of when life began or the right to terminate a pregnancy was understood to be a deeply personal, religious question. This was not a partisan issue; the Republican Party was pro-abortion rights until 1980, reproductive care was women’s health care.
How did the right-to-life, anti-abortion movement become the banner for our strident culture wars, the call to action for a huge lurch to the right in this country?
The arc of societal change is hard to imagine in the midst of profound cultural and political transformations. Americans are increasingly living in isolated, segregated islands of like-minded people. Although the majority of Americans favor reproductive choice, politicians, commentators on Fox News and the Supreme Court are racing to deny that right. It appears that as women chose work over early marriage, or smaller families, or moved into positions of power, or called out rape and sexual harassment, the patriarchy, a society dominated by men, became frightened.
As the populations of immigrant groups and people of color increased in the U.S., enriching our society and filling our workforce, sometimes rising to positions of authority, mostly white men felt threatened and diminished. As LGBTQ folks expanded our understanding of gender and human sexuality, cisgender — and conservative religious people — worried about the impact of these ideas on their children and perhaps the stirrings in their own conflicted hearts.
The backlash has been profound. Over the years, accessibility to abortions has been deliberately diminished, particularly in the South and Midwest. Now the politically tainted Supreme Court, its reputation sullied, is about to make the final cut. The idea that a Constitution written by white, landed, slave-owning, aristocratic men is the reference point on which Republicans stand is outrageous. In 1787, the word “woman” did not even cross those visionary but limited minds.
Fear of the other, the browning of America, the migration of populations that is part of human history, has given life to the “great replacement” theory. This idea used to be relegated to extreme right-wing zealots, but now the belief that people of color and immigrants, possibly organized by conniving Jews at the service of a cabal of pedophile elites, are being moved to the U.S. to “replace” white people and vote Democratic can even be heard in the halls of Congress.
A similar impulse has led to an attack on “critical race theory.” The view that learning U.S. history grounded in the facts of ethnic cleansing, slavery and racism belittles white people counters the reality that progress is only made when we all understand and are held accountable for the past.
We live in a country hijacked by fear: The loss of male privilege and threats to white supremacy, where that fear is being used to mobilize voters who are poisoned with misinformation and conspiracy theories. I would have more respect for the “pro-life movement” if it also actually supported universal health care, generous parental leave, free day care, well-funded public schools, and strict gun control to nourish and protect those who are already born. My fear is that the rest of us, lulled by complacency and despair, will not understand what we are losing until it is already lost.

Alice Rothchild is a physician, author and filmmaker focused on human rights and social justice. Until retirement she served as assistant professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Harvard Medical School. She is the author of "Broken Promises, Broken Dreams: Stories of Jewish and Palestinian Trauma and Resilience." A grandmother, she is currently writing books for children and young adults.

Pearl Cherrington
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