Bicycle Bad Actors

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mister_coffee
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by mister_coffee »

Someone apparently asked a question about roller skis on the E and W Chewuch Roads.

My opinion is that those roads, for the most part, have light traffic and pretty good sight lines, so the safety issue is not grossly large. If they were doing the same thing on (say) the East County Road between Winthrop and Twisp (which has killed more than one cyclist) I'd have a very different opinion. I've also noticed that when the ski team kids are training there they usually have signs out reminding motorists to slow the heck down.

The E and W Chewuch roads are also a very popular cycling route, arguably the most popular places to ride a bike in the valley

On bikes, there are no shortage of lightly-traveled and interesting and scenic roads to ride here in the valley, and the vast majority of them see very little use of any kind. It is a little frustrating that many of the more interesting roads are now gated off after the Cub Creek 2 Fire last year (e.g. the roads around Buck Lake, Falls Creek Road, and the roads around First Butte). However, there isn't in any way a shortage of interesting and legal places to ride your bike here that are very safe.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by Fun CH »

Rideback wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 9:16 am I'm just saying that the ebikes add another element to number of cyclists in the valley. .
very true. E-bikes have been great at getting people outside for some exercise who normally wouldn't ride or getting on in years and perhaps have a medical issue.

I rode a friends ebike and as Pearl says you can still get a workout.

I'm not ready to give up a regular bike yet but I'm certain there is an ebike in my future. Perhaps sooner than later as gas prices rise due to oil company price gouging.

@David. I'm curious as to your opinion about ski team rollerski use on the West Chiwack road? Do you see it as a safety concern or a Darwin equation?
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by PAL »

Yes, they add to the mix. We got ours so we could go into places further, where cars can't go. To save time if we want to hike in somewhere, generally not a designated trail. We would stash the bikes(hide them, lock them, together) then hike in where we want to go. Or we can cross a bridge that is out to vehicles but is still supportive of a bike or walkers.
Another thing we don't do with them is go up private drives to access FS lands.
And we are older, so they help with some of those hills we could do as youngsters.
The other thing to use them for is grocery shopping, but Twisp River Rd. is so dangerous right now, I won't do it, unfortunately.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by Rideback »

I'm just saying that the ebikes add another element to number of cyclists in the valley. People can go on longer rides, maintain speed up hills and there's a real appeal for those that want to explore but don't have the fitness to go on more challenging rides. All that translates into more bikes, more caution necessary.

I have neighbors who bring their ebikes up to the State lands and ride all the time. The State gave the go ahead on anything under 750 and though MV does not approve they don't seem to be enforcing that disapproval, at least not from what my neighbors tell me. I blocked access through my place for the ebikes when they came up and hit my dog, going too fast and couldn't stop.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by PAL »

Absolutely right about the ebikes. Ours cut out at 20mph. Going down a good long hill can really gain momentum. Almost scary. We have the Rad Rovers that are 69 lbs. Have to be careful. These are not the mountain bikes for single track, which MT does not want on their trails and I agree. We go on logging roads or gravel county roads mostly.
Just because there is assist, doesn't mean we can't get a workout. These are heavy bikes to pull up inclines, so I reach a point where I do need to use assist.
With any kind of biking, we never ever ride abreast on paved busy roads. Single file only for us, unless we are on a FS road that does not get alot of traffic.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by mister_coffee »

Most electric bikes you see around here are class I or class II electric bikes where the assist cuts out at 20mph. Past that you are pedaling a bike with awkward gearing that is probably three times as heavy as a decent road bike. And you are doing that with no power assist.

Most moderately fit road cyclists can comfortably cycle at over 20mph on flat terrain.

About the only places where such an e-bike has a great speed advantage is on long and steep climbs, where on a decent e-bike you might trundle along at 8-12mph where a regular bike with appropriate gearing is probably going less than 6mph.

So if the average speed of e-bikes is greater, it is greater by a very modest amount.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by PAL »

And don't forget people that drive over the center line! On the curves! Just had one of the empty "root ball" trucks, coming into Twisp, as I was heading up Twisp River, near town-OVER THE LINE!
I guess it's time to write that letter to the paper to patliently explain what the center line means.
Did I get the name on the truck? Heck no, I was busy getting over as much as I could. But...if I hadn't had ice cream in the car(no, I was not eating it while driving)I could have turned around and followed them. I know where they are getting those root balls.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by Rideback »

Situational awareness is not just smart, it's a necessity. For the past couple of years we've had heat waves, wildfires and air quality issues that have kept many tourists at bay from the valley. That could easily change if we get a nice summer. Changes that could come would be tons of bike riders on the roads, including electric bikes that tend to be ridden faster and more places. Driving amongst the bikers, hikers, horseback riders and more overall vehicles (manned by lookie loos) means driving is going to become more of a fluid obstacle course for all of us.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by Fun CH »

PAL wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:04 am it is a dangerous situation. Ah well, what can ya do.
create safety awareness like we are doing in this thread and that you and others are doing by contacting the Nordic team and or public land management agencies like the forest service, WSDOT, county road dept, etc.

The ski team could mitigate the risk that they're exposing children to by practicing at Pearrygin Lake State Park coordinated for safety with the Park Rangers.

Here's an example that applies to any potential risk why safety awareness is important.

"Safety awareness is a constant realization that every worker should have at all times. It involves being constantly aware of how they are working, and being able to recognize the hazards they face. Safety awareness is absolutely essential in mitigating safety-related risks."

Note the use of the concept of "constant realization" or as Mountaineers study; "situational awareness".
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by PAL »

The ski team was practicing on Twisp River Rd. as well. I called the Nordic office and left a message, stating how dangerous TRR is from Twisp on out about 8-9 miles. If they practiced further out, there are less curves and far less traffic, especially during the week. On these blind curves out here, death awaits. This was a couple of years ago. And then I did see them once last year.
Saw a bicyclist yesterday on our curve coming up river, in the middle of the road, coaching a runner! in front of them. Observed a car coming around the curve; the bicyclist swerved to get over. I thought, lucky.
The bicyclists on that curve and the activity you describe Chris, is a cavalier attitude. I pray it won't catch up with them. Again, they think they own the road.
Another thing in the mix is commercial mushroomers. There is a camp to be set up Coal Cr.
With the logging trucks, the shroomers, bikes, runners, walkers, possibly ATV's it is a dangerous situation. Ah well, what can ya do.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by Fun CH »

Hwy 20 between twisp and Winthrop is a dangerous section of road for a bicycle Rider with its narrow shoulder.

I'm guessing that a bicycle Rider could claim the hwy lane and have Vehicles deal with legal passing.

Pearl, its not just ATV's that could create problems.

I've heard a number of people who are concerned with children's safety complain about the ski team using the West Chiwack Road for rollerski training. Its a 50mph road and the people I've talked to wonder why the coaches would put the kids at risk.

I don't use that road much so I have not encountered that situation

On Sunday three of us pedestrians encountered two bicycle riders at The Hairpin on closed hwy 20 passing us at a high rate of speed coming within several feet of us. This occurred while we were standing on the hwy getting ready for a BC ski tour.

One simple mistake at that speed and they could have killed or severely injured us and or themselves. Two other bikers tried that same high speed maneuver but we were able to stand directly in their path in time so they had no choice but to slow down or move to the other lanes.

Our "camp" was located to be out of avalanche harzard and was clearly visible to everyone when they passed going up the hill. Can't miss that big orange tent, or our orange clothing. ;)

For some reason those hazardous bicycle riders chose not to use the two other hwy Lanes that were available going down past our "camp". The majority of riders chose to safely pass us in the other lanes, some even stopping to chat.

I'm not certain because it all happened so fast, but I believe one of the dangerous Riders I was able to slow down was a ski coach and one of the Riders going by in a blur was her daughter. In any case that's an example of an adult who has obviously been setting a poor safety example.

And remember at the beginning of pandemic there were reports on the other bulletin boards of large gatherings of ski team members not wearing masks at the MT trailheads.

I personally witnessed ski team and coach members riding up the closed hwy 20 and assembling for ski practice under a rock fall area at a time during the pandemic when such Gatherings were prohibited.

I was especially concerned when I witnessed, on two separate occasions that same day, two young teenage girls on their own proceeding to solo ski back through active Rock fall areas and Avalanche terrain.

So like in every sport or with the truck that Rideback describes that could have killed other people legally using the road, there are always a few bad apples.


"en·ti·tle·ment
/inˈtīdlmənt,enˈtīdlmənt/

the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
"no wonder your kids have a sense of entitlement""
Last edited by Fun CH on Tue May 03, 2022 9:13 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by PAL »

Sounds like a survival situation. But a person could try to get the name of the trucking company and license and then possibly contact the company. You could call it in to the statey just to have it on record. They could watch for him, but chances are nothing would happen, as they are stretched too thin.
Now with ATV's on some of the county roads in the mix that are being proposed...
Those details are in the minutes of the commissioners meeting held yesterday. Will post those notes once they come out on a new topic.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by Rideback »

Last week on my way to Twisp on Hwy 20 I saw a guy on a bike ahead of me doing a good job of staying to the right. I slowed down because there was traffic coming the other direction, but I was still doing about 55. Then a semi came up behind me, pulled out to pass, it was at a double line and close to a blind hill and there I was, pinned alongside the bike rider.

Cars came over the hill while the semi was in their lane and I could hear them hitting their brakes and see them swerving. The bike rider was in danger.

We all made it out the other side ok, but it was too close to a disaster for me. The semi booted it and must have been doing 70 once he got over the hill. I'm sure the biker was looking for a change of his shorts.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by PAL »

Thanks. Alot of variables there. I'm glad I don't ride in traffic much. We have ebikes, wonder if the non stopping applies. Will do some research.
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by Fun CH »

PAL wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 4:22 pm What do you think of the non stoppping? The rationale is that a bicyclist stops, then has to start again, is slower and makes crossing a road slower. Is that right? It kind of shocks me sometimes when I see a cyclist not stopping, blithely riding through the intersection, really thinking they have the right of way.
statistics show that the new law is safer for the bicycle Rider. The wording of the law seems a bit ambiguous and leaves a lot to the discretion of the bicycle Rider such as how slow is slow when running the stop sign? Were there vehicles present if one is moving towards the intersection but 5, 19, or 20 feet from it?
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Re: Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by PAL »

And I think it is only going to get worse. The logging trucks on Twisp River Rd. are going to be a chanllenge. The only time we ride on the road is to get to a side road, which usually is a county road or old logging road.
I will stay behind a bicyclist if it is not safe to pass, but have seen others going around bicylists on a near blind curve. I won't do it. Not safe for either person. And the vehicle behind just doesn't like it!
The main point is, we need to work together on this and help each other and be considerate. I do think I have more positive experiences with vehicles than not.
What do you think of the non stoppping? The rationale is that a bicyclist stops, then has to start again, is slower and makes crossing a road slower. Is that right? It kind of shocks me sometimes when I see a cyclist not stopping, blithely riding through the intersection, really thinking they have the right of way. Maybe they are few that do this.
When I rode in Seattle, I always acted as if every car was going to kill me. I do here too. Take nothing for granted. Sometimes drivers really can't see us, althought I wear bright colors now and so do many others.
And now the ATV folks are requesting more roads to be opened for their use-again. There was a commissioners meeting today that discussed that. Will post the notes when I get them all.
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Bicycle Bad Actors

Post by Fun CH »

First I'd like to say that I ride bicycles and advocate for their safe use. I've had a few incidents with drivers who don't desire to share the road and that's not just with trucks, that poor behavior also occurs with BMW's.



Fortunately that behavior occurs with a minority of the drivers I encounter while riding my bike.

I've been in a few situations on some of the narrow two Lane roads around here as a bicycle Rider where it wasn't safe to yield the lane and only moved over to the right when it was safe to do so. A typical situation when that occurs is when there is oncoming traffic and a vehicle behind you.

If you don't take the lane, drivers tend to be in a hurry and try to pass partly in your lane and partly in the lane of oncoming traffic. That's a scary situation for a bicycle Rider and it's perfectly legal for the bicycle to take the lane in this case.

As a bicycle Rider you still need to be careful because that driver may still try to pass. That's one reason I ride my mountain bike even on the roads because I can dive off into the ditch a lot easier if need be. That would be hard to on a road bicycle and still maintain control.

Its said that a few rotten apples spoil the barrel and that's certainly true with drivers in the above scenario who won't share the road.

However what is the responsibility of bicycle riders?


Yesterday while driving my car, I experienced two Road Riders riding two abreast along Highway 20. This is perfectly legal however it is the bicycles responsibility to allow enough room for the vehicle to pass by moving to the right when safe to do so and yesterday that did not occur. Lots of room and a big shoulder on the section of Hwy 20 so why the rude behavior?

This situation is growing more common in our are with bicycles not moving over to the right when safe as the bicycle rider seemingly refuses to yield the road. Common courtesy goes a long way towards relieving user group conflicts.

As a bicycle Rider I know I will lose any battle with a vehicle over any lane dispute whether I'm right or whether I'm wrong. I also know that if I purposely piss off a driver my behavior will reflect poorly on every bicycle rider out there.

Don't piss off the drivers by not following the rules of the roads.


Here is the Washington State law governing the two above scenarios.

"When the operator of a bicycle is using the travel lane of a roadway with only one lane for traffic moving in the direction of travel and it is wide enough for a bicyclist and a vehicle to travel safely side-by-side within it, the bicycle operator shall operate far enough to the right to facilitate the movement of an overtaking vehicle unless other conditions make it unsafe to do so or unless the bicyclist is preparing to make a turning movement or while making a turning movement".

One recent change to bicycle law is that we can now treat stop signs as yield signs as long as there's no other traffic in the intersection, no pedestrians, slow down and still have to stop at stop lights and school bus and train crossing stop signs.
Last edited by Fun CH on Mon May 02, 2022 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
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