Pool Weigh In

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mister_coffee
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by mister_coffee »

I answered my own question. There is an outdoor pool in Omak and training and lessons are offered there.

To be clear, I think it is important to weigh intangibles as well as dollars and cents in this discussion. I've concluded it isn't realistic for this community to independently support a pool from local tax revenues. If we really think a pool is desirable here other options should be considered.

Oh, and this pool complex in Austria is in a cold, steep valley reminiscent of our upper valley. There are in fact nordic ski trails right up to the resort:

https://www.moonhoneytravel.com/aqua-dome-austria/

Of course, much of the resort is textile free. Which means you are walking around nekkid.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by Fun CH »

mister_coffee wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:03 am Back to pools.

Just a practical question here. A lot of outdoor activities popular in the valley, such as stand-up paddle boarding, require at least basic swimming skills to safely participate. Such basic skills are best learned from competent instructors in a swimming pool, not from your friends while swimming at Patterson Lake. So where is the best place to get swim lessons if you live here?

I'll also add that you are seriously foolish if you participate in any on-water activities here without being a competent swimmer.
Lol.. We never left the subject of pools. It's perfectly valid to make other comparisons of services paid for by tax dollars.


David are you suggesting that a new tax funded 20-48 million dollar pool is required because of swimming lessons?

Isn't that just another one of those "but its for the children" arguments used to garner sympathy and support?

I learned to swim in the ocean. Perhaps that's where my love of nature first started and not the "hate paradise put in a parking lot" attitude.

Also on the subject of using an outside the Valley contractor. When we lived in Pine Forest, the HOA board thought that it was a good idea to hire non local labor for forest thinning. They hired a contractor from Montana and a crew came up from Texas. It cost $85,000 to treat 20 acres which is kind of outrageous. How is that supporting the local economy?

The first properties to be treated were the board President's private property and his surrounding common and private property all paid for by HOA dues money.

The PF HOA board received a bit of pushback from a minority of members. As a result of that push back among other changes a local contractor was hired for the rest of the project and HOA dues would only support fire mitigation thinning of the common areas, not private property as stated in our mutual contracts.

They hopefully understood the lesson of that push back.

But this is how many vacation home owners and many wealthy recent Valley new comers think instead thinking in terms of respecting the local community and culture that was here when they arrived.

I grow tired of self serving adgenda's and the phony self-serving rationales used to justify those agendas, especially when I'm forced to pay for them.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by PAL »

You got that right. I lived by bodies of water most of my young life. The first thing my mom did was teach me to swim when I was six. And to never swim alone. I took one formal lesson from an instructor. It was so cold, I was turning blue. So we nixed that and when we lived at a lake again that is where I learned.
So, once the water warms up here, swimming could be taught in a lake. It's liberating.
Even for those not living near the water, swimming should be taught. Of course, probably need a pool for that. Which can be funded by some very wealthy people that live here.
Like the Winthrop library, ice rink, etc.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by mister_coffee »

Back to pools.

Just a practical question here. A lot of outdoor activities popular in the valley, such as stand-up paddle boarding, require at least basic swimming skills to safely participate. Such basic skills are best learned from competent instructors in a swimming pool, not from your friends while swimming at Patterson Lake. So where is the best place to get swim lessons if you live here?

I'll also add that you are seriously foolish if you participate in any on-water activities here without being a competent swimmer.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by PAL »

Right on!
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by mister_coffee »

PAL wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:11 pm Agree. We essentially subsidize the fossil fuels. But, I don't think we should subsidize the pool with our property tax dollars. Unless, eveyone pays a tax that does not include an increase in property taxes. So what kind of tax would that look like? We don't want a tax on food, that's for sure. What can be taxed besides increasing property taxes? If a Recreation District is created, then eveyone, not just property owners should contribute to that.
I don't know. Maybe we have an additional hotel/motel tax, or a tax on vacation properties?
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by PAL »

Agree. We essentially subsidize the fossil fuels. But, I don't think we should subsidize the pool with our property tax dollars. Unless, eveyone pays a tax that does not include an increase in property taxes. So what kind of tax would that look like? We don't want a tax on food, that's for sure. What can be taxed besides increasing property taxes? If a Recreation District is created, then eveyone, not just property owners should contribute to that.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

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PAL wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:22 am There is a big difference between funding a pool(luxury) and funding public transportation.
The big arguments you can make about that are:

* Aren't private automobiles, and most particular the fossil fuels they run on, subsidized as well?
* If you are optimizing for moving people, rather than cars, it probably is much more cost-effective to subsidize public transportation than to add more lanes to roads. And human-carrying buses are fairly light, so you probably do less damage to the road with one bus carrying 20 people than 20 people in individual cars.

This totally leaves out less tangible benefits like providing transportation options to people who cannot afford a personal car, or due to age or disability cannot drive.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

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There is a big difference between funding a pool(luxury) and funding public transportation.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by Gonzo'57 »

Mickey B says,

"If it a pool can't be supported as a business where the user pays the fee, than its a no for government support on a pool that will leak in 20 years and need more tax dollars for a new one."

I'm wondering if you feel the same way about public transportation? This government function certainly isn't paid for by the users. If the public transportation system can't be supported as a business where the users pay the fee, than it's a no go for government support on a bus that will need maintenance and replacement and in 20 years will need more tax dollars for a new one. To paraphrase.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by PAL »

Because Mickey, it's like everything else that is happening here and other places. Turning it into a giant amusement park.
Need all kinds of trails, for bikes, hikes etc. when the animal trails are much more interesting to follow. I get it that some phsyically impaired people or older people, need the smoothness and even surface of trails. But what is really good for people is to walk on the animal trails. Over time the body likes it.
Pool, yes, but not our property taxes paying for it. If the Recreation District gets voted in, that's it. We will be at the whims...
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by mister_coffee »

That pool has been in operation for 66 years, and is a large fifty meter pool that is approximately four times the size of the pool in Twisp.

A more relevant question would be what is the per year maintenance cost?

I think you could make a fair argument that this community is too small to afford the capital and maintenance cost of a pool. The greater Wenatchee area (which actually has three public pools) has a much larger tax base and population to draw on for financial support than we do.

Whatever you can say about the quality of water in a public pool, keep in mind that some of the local swimming holes have had various nastiness in the past. I'd rather hit a public pool than Patterson Lake or Pearrygin Lake any day of the week. Also, a public pool is a better place to develop the skills and techniques to safely swim in open water.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by PAL »

Thanks Mickey. And let's take it further by saying it would be a minority of people would use it. Of course, what about "build it, and they will come?" Don't think so.
Our taxes pay for it, then one still has to pay to use it.
Vote no for a recreation bill. A recreation bill sounds good at first glance, but the one they presented last time gave too much leeway in the use of monies and how to get it.
"At first glance". That is the problem. People, well educated people even, don't delve further. They want what they want and don't even want to look at the deeper aspects. They would have to confront reality.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by Fun CH »

mister_coffee wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:47 pm Just saying, but in all probability such a development would be financed. So it wouldn't be $5000 all in one event but probably $100 per year over 50 years. Also, there are federal matching funds from a number of sources that could be tapped too (there certainly were on the current pool), which would make the hit even less.

I'd also make the observation that the Methow generate approximately 80 percent of the property tax revenue for Okanogan County. But the vast majority of that money isn't spent here but the next valley over. Combined with how the County Commissioner districts effectively disenfranchise the valley and how many of the folks over there don't consider us *real* citizens of Okanogan County, I have to wonder if there isn't some way for us to keep the money here and let Omak have its meth and Wal-Mart.
Exactly how many people don't consider us citizens of the county? My understanding is that rural areas receive a lot of support from the urban tax base. Perhaps they should just keep the State tax money on the west side?

I didnt support the recreation district idea and I don't desire to support "luxury" projects with my tax dollars.

As pointed out above, soaking your body in an antibacterial chemical stew is not good for your health.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by PAL »

Yes, the legistlature has to approve it and it won't happen. People may ask, what about the jails, courthouse, plowing? There are solutions to each one of those. We'd keep the $ here but the rest of the county would not like that. So we'd have the $ to use for those kinds of things.

I'm not saying no to a pool, just the way it is proposed to be financed.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by realoldtimer »

PAL wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:04 pmMethow County!!
Been seriously considered once upon a time. About the time we realized that we were not getting our share of the Hotel-Motel Tax bucks.

Still going on? Doesn't surprise me. OCTN (Okanogan County Transportation and Nutrition) finally allowed Methow Valley seniors to get lunch on Tuesdays - making four lunches a week available when for years it was just three.

BTW - The Center has a wonderful cook. Greta is serving purty good grub. If you're over 60 years old lunch is $4. Menu on Center's FB page.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

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Methow County!!
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Re: Pool Weigh In

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Just saying, but in all probability such a development would be financed. So it wouldn't be $5000 all in one event but probably $100 per year over 50 years. Also, there are federal matching funds from a number of sources that could be tapped too (there certainly were on the current pool), which would make the hit even less.

I'd also make the observation that the Methow generate approximately 80 percent of the property tax revenue for Okanogan County. But the vast majority of that money isn't spent here but the next valley over. Combined with how the County Commissioner districts effectively disenfranchise the valley and how many of the folks over there don't consider us *real* citizens of Okanogan County, I have to wonder if there isn't some way for us to keep the money here and let Omak have its meth and Wal-Mart.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by pasayten »

Sent in my feedback also... Not on my tax bill! :-)
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by PAL »

I filled out the feedback form. I was polite but stated that I did not want a special recreation district created to fund the pool. I do not want to have an increase in property taxes, bonds or levies. I said the minority should not have to fund a luxury item when housing is needed. I said that a weatlhy benefactor needs to step forward to help with capitol costs and building costs.

I might sound harsh, but the reality must be faced. I think they tried to create a special recreation district before and it did not pass.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by pasayten »

Hey... only 10 to 18 million for an indoor pool... 18 to 24 million with therapy pool...

Methow Valley population = 5,000... $2,000 - $4,800 per person... Good grief!

Post this thread to your facebook feed!

Community Forum - Envision the Future of Swimming in the Methow Valley
THANKS FOR JOINING US - MARCH 24, 6PM VIA ZOOM
On March 24 forty participants joined us to learn and view what options are out there for a new pool. They provided input, suggestions, and feedback.

The meeting was presented by Ballard*King and Friends of the Pool.

Click the Button Below to watch and fill out the feedback form below so we can hear from you!
Forum video...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y15mq3 ... sp=sharing

Feedback form...
https://forms.gle/njqQDs6j8rsUWLjR6

Website...
https://www.foptwisp.org/
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by realoldtimer »

Mickey M. wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:58 pm
mister_coffee wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:01 pm
I wonder if hard freeze thaw cycles can effect the ground under and around a pool.
I think the leakage from the Wagner pool has been mostly from plumbing issues.

I remember the issues began shortly after the big remodel when the slide was installed. ALSO remember watching shortcuts being taken while finishing the remodel when project ran over budget.

Pool has had several repairs since then, but plastic plumbing is compromised, I think.

Seem to remember slab between pool and bathhouse having to be jackhammered out, plumbing fixed, and concrete repoured.
All that is history.
---------------------
I quit swimming in the pool after a heavy chlorine bath; had to stop attending swim meets because chlorine odor was so strong, and smells are particulate, ya know.

Anyway, could just buy an inflatable dome and turn the existing pool into a sheltered one.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by PAL »

But do you think it is financially feasible to have a covered pool or a pool period? There will be the, "but what abouts?" as reasons for having one.
But as the paper says the permanment population does not use it that much.
For those that want it, the benefactor approach is the only way with a trust set up for operating costs. I've never enjoyed swimming in other people's pee. Ha Ha. I guess that is what the massive amounts of chlorine is for.
For the swim team to have a pool, I understand that. Any wealthy people out there? We do seem to have a plethora.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by mister_coffee »

Mickey M. wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:58 pm
mister_coffee wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:01 pm Leaking in 20 years?

Coleman Pool in Seattle has been operating in summers since the 1940's.
I wonder if hard freeze thaw cycles can effect the ground under and around a pool.
...
This must be news to the outdoor 50m pools in Wenatchee and Spokane, which have been in operation for 50 years.
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Re: Pool Weigh In

Post by PAL »

A pool shouldn't leak in 20yrs, but the way things are done nowdays.
Seattle has money and the numbers of people that can support it. We do not. Well, obviously we do. Look at the Library, fire hall, etc. Twisp Civic Center.
No, we need a person who will give a gift. I know, I'll call up Elon. He could spare it. He wants to buy Twitter. Never mind doing anything sensible.
Oh boy, do I have another post about that kind of wealth.
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