Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

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Fun CH
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Re: Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by Fun CH »

PAL wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:05 pm Glad you are talking and taking action. There's the supervisor in Wenatchee too. I can't recall her name. If you need it I can find it for you.
Pearl
I have email CCed the okanogan-wenatchee National Forest supervisor, Kristin Bail, in the past concerning safety and social conflicts on federal land in the North Cascades.

The responce that I received from our District Ranger Chris Furr in March of 2020 made it clear that he desires that I not contact his boss and he "will pass on any information that is pertinent to her."

At the time, we were discussing safety issues related to off road snowmobile use in terrain areas used by skiers.

Others were working on that issue at the time. Chris Furr issued a snowmobile closure for a small amount of off road skier terrain up hwy 20. He acknowledge our safety concerns are valid however he used covid as an excuse for the closure.

The issue made it to Washington DC political lobbyist's for motorized off-road use and the closure was quickly rescinded.

Part of what I do is make sure these issues are part of the public record along with the FS response and the result.

In this case, a recent fatitiy occurred when a snowmobile triggered an avalanche down upon a BC skier.

Of course skiers also trigger Avalanches down on each other all the time including members of the same group, as was the case in this recent Maple pass accident.

However snowmobiler's often enter terrain areas that we are using and in a short amount time are above us.

Because of their weight and the energy that they impart to the snowpack, snowmobiles are able to trigger an avalanche long after that snow pack weakness is a concern for a skier. Or there is an avy concern in a specific area on a slope that the BC ski group does not plan to enter but the snowmobile does. And snowmobiles can trigger sympathetic slides that may affect the BC ski group but not them.

They can trigger an avalanche that effects the BC skier when they are above you or when they are below you.

In that snowmobiler avy trigger down on a BC skier, both were high school students and both died. A direct result of Governmental public land use policy.


"According to the Bridger-Teton Avalanche Center (BTAC), the two were on the slope at the same time when the slide occurred'"

https://backcountrymagazine.com/stories ... owmobiler/

Same with NCH ski corp dropping a load above us.

With Heliski guides, the first thing they do before they ski a slope is to do Avalanche control work. They do that by ski cutting any slope that has the potential to Avalanche. That is their safety protocol and for good reason.

We've already had an incident where a commercial guide triggered an avalanche down on a Backcountry skier on a day with avy concerns while the glide was doing Avalanche control work by ski cutting the slope. The BC skier saw the guide doing the ski cut and yelled up. The guide obviously did not assure that the slope was clear below prior to that potentially fatal action.

As with the avy near miss at Maple pass, they don't often see us.

BC skiers don't want either of those motorized groups above them in Avalanche Terrain.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
PAL
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Re: Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by PAL »

Glad you are talking and taking action. There's the supervisor in Wenatchee too. I can't recall her name. If you need it I can find it for you.
Pearl
Pearl Cherrington
Fun CH
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Re: Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by Fun CH »

Just spoke with local FS.

The local FS rec person did not know about that avy near miss accident at Maple Pass.

We briefly discussed the incident and the effect that the heli arriving, while that group was climbing to reach the same area, had upon the groups decision making and terrain choice.

I informed the FS that I would be sending a formal letter concerning this public safety and user conflict issue that has yet to be successfully mitigated.

I'm afraid action will not taken until someone dies as a result this public safety conflict.

Best for the FS to learn the lesson from this near miss accident, research the science in the field of heuristics and decision making, and take meaningful action before that death occurs.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
PAL
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Re: Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by PAL »

Yep, that's the term. Thanks for filling in the blank. It's not new, but I saw a video of "youngsters" doing it. I think for bragging rights. Looked quite exhausting for a thrill. Ha Ha.
Am I gettin' old? No, older, but not old.
Pearl Cherrington
Fun CH
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Re: Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by Fun CH »

Are you thinking of the term ski mountaineering? That may or may not involve the use of ropes, crampons, ice axes, etc.

Some people say there is a difference between BC skiing and Ski mountaineering but really there is very little difference between the two terms.

Maybe just a little more gear clanking about with ski mountaineering or not depending upon risk tolerance
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
PAL
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Re: Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by PAL »

So BC doesn't sound like a good option right now for people, perhaps. Well, I don't go up there anyway but think of others.
And now, it may have been around for awhile, the name eludes me. Where people go up and then climb faces with ropes, with skis on their backs, then ski in a bowl. All crazy. What are they calling that kind of skiing? Drives me nuts when I can't think of the name! Ha! This is what getting older does.
I don't know if people are doing that here.
Pearl Cherrington
Fun CH
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Re: Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by Fun CH »

PAL wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:48 pm Chris, photo is pretty scary. Were you there? And were locals involved. Glad everyone is ok.
. Yes, locals. I was skiing that day but in a different area.

Sketchy weak layers in the snow pack right now that hopefully this week's warm weather will help heal.

I can tell you from experience, the heli operating near you checks many of the boxes for heuristic traps. The heli changes the way a BC group will make decisions.

Its kind of like a wasp buzzing around your head. It's risky to swat at the wasp but we do it anyway.

Here is the forecast summary for that day from NWAC.

https://nwac.us/avalanche-forecast/

"You can trigger dangerous persistent slab avalanches on slopes 35 degrees and steeper. You may be able to trigger these avalanches from far away or from overhead slopes. Avoid being on or under suspect slopes, especially where you see fresh drifts. Leeward slopes at upper elevations where the wind deposits snow could be the most dangerous. Put a large buffer of terrain between where you travel and large start zones. Minimize your exposure to large avalanche paths and look for safe locations to stop or regroup.

"Red flag" signs of the danger include whumphing collapses, cracks shooting through the snow, and tests that propagate or fail suddenly. The late-January weak layer can be found 1.5-2 feet below the surface and is a combination of weak, sugar-like facets and crusts. You may find the weakest snow sandwiched between two crusts. At mid-elevations, about 5,300-5,600ft, you can find buried surface hoar at this interface. We have good information about the problem near Washington Pass and Hart's Pass. We believe that the problem exists elsewhere in the zone, though we have less information about the nature of it there. "
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
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Re: Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by PAL »

Chris, photo is pretty scary. Were you there? And were locals involved. Glad everyone is ok.
Pearl Cherrington
Fun CH
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Re: Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by Fun CH »

That report brings up a safety issue that the FS has failed to successfully mitigate, that being BC skiers in use of a terrain area when the heli flys in and drops a load above us.

According to 2002-3 EA, the helicopter is required to leave an area if safe to do so, where BC skiers are located. This avy incident could have been fatal.

Its easy to say the BC skiers could have gone home when the heli moved in, but here is what we experience. In 2002-2003 ski season our group had a similar encounter.

On a blue bird day our group started out early in the morning to attempt to ski Frisco peak (same as the recent incident). After a long snowmobile ride, I had trouble getting over LB 3 slide path. After several attempts of climbing the cone, digging out the stuck machine, and reversing, I gave up. My friend offered to tow me the rest of the way. So loaded up my gear, put on my skis and was towed to Rainy pass. This all took time and effort.

We climbed up to and crossed Rainy lake and proceeded to climb above the lake where after climbing several hundred vertical feet had to Traverse climbers right above a major cliff band. This area is very exposed and even one small avalanche could mean injury or death with a terrain trap below. Our group spreads out in this terrain trap area which also takes time looking after each other.

While in this exposed area we heard what I thought was an avalanche. At that point I was a bit shaken to say the least. Turns out it was the helicopter approaching.

As we climbed further we could now see the heliskiers sking and tracking up the snow slopes we had intended to ski. The helicopter landed in that fragile tarn basin for pickup and the guide, a friend of mine, saw me. He later told me he was glad it was us.

After we were seen, the helicopter groups continued to ski lines above us, triggering one small slab Avalanche which was triggered by an intentional ski cut.

They skied out all of the ski lines on that slope area,while we had to experience continued ear-splitting noise as we climbed.

According to our agreement they were supposed to leave the area and they didn't.( I have reported to the FS similar incidents.)

On that day, and because all the ski lines were skied out, our group decided to ski the backside of Frisco which takes you into the North Cascades National Park, but also extends an already long day.

After sking that Westerly trending ski Terrain we had to climb back up to Maple pass. At the top, one member of our group felt ill. Because of our unplanned ski tour extension, he had over exerted himself. We now had a potentially dire situation. Fortunately the illness resolved enough that we were able to get out and back home safely.

I tell the story because I'm trying to convey the effort it takes for us human-powered skiers to complete a ski tour.

Compare that effort to a heli-skiers life of sipping sweetened coffee drinks up until the point they climb into the warm helicopter. Five to ten minutes later they have reached the point that takes us many multiple hours and a great deal of effort.

And then it appears that they don't look for skiers using the area and often after seeing us they don't leave. The High decibel noise they make has been proven to damage human health yet the FS fails to address this concern. The phrase 'can't hear myself think' comes to mind in a critical situation where we need to think clearly.

Add to that the risk of skiers being dropped above us in Avalaniche terrain and the risk of a helicopter operating in close proximity to us in a hostile Mountain environment and you have a situation that the Forest Service either has been unwilling or unable to successfully mitigate. Please remember that three NCH helicopters have already been crashed, including that rotor strike incident, in ski terrain which required the remaining peices to be air lifted out.

I know from FOIA request former District Ranger Mike Liu that the FS intends to continue Heli-skiing in the North Cascades no matter the what permit violation or unlawful activity that is discovered and reported to the FS.

This operation obviously is politically protected, however does that fact absolve the forest service of its responsibility to successfully mitigate the public health and safety conflicts that motorized use incurs upon Backcountry skiers?
Last edited by Fun CH on Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
Fun CH
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Feb 5th near miss avy at Maple Pass

Post by Fun CH »

22736.jpeg
From NWAC public observation page.


https://nwac.us/public-obs/10978/

"Northwest Avalanche Center
Observation: Public
Observation Details
Name:
Cameron Painter
Observation Date:
February 5, 2022
Submitted:
February 6, 2022
Zone or Region:
East North
Activity:
Skiing/Snowboarding
Location:
Maple pass
Triggered Avalanches
Did you trigger any avalanches? Yes
Was it intentional? No
Avalanche Type:
Hard Slab
Size:
Size 2: Could bury, injure, or kill a person
Elevation:
6800’-6400’
Aspect:
E
Comments:
East facing slope 3’ deep 200’ wide Ran 400-600 feet in elevation
Signs of Unstable Snow
None reported
Observations
Intended to ride Lyle glacier. Due to excessive helicopter traffic, was forced onto steeper and wind affected east face of maple pass. 2pm, third rider in party triggered a slab avalanche approximately 3’ deep and 200’ wide running approx 400.’ Third rider was swept the entire way. Resurfaced as debris fanned out, unharmed. 1st and 2nd rider posted up in small treed island further away were affected by snow impact including partial burial. 4th in party watched from above maintaining safe distance. No injuries, safe ride out.

Lessons: remote localized snowpack variances necessitate conservative route choice. Include a large margin for safety of onlookers- close enough to help, far enough for safety. Avalanche was larger and thus traveled much faster and farther than expected."
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
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