Snowpark at SilverStar

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Fun CH
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

A couple of screen shots from MNBB. Double tap for clarify.
Screenshot_20231114_103622.png
Screenshot_20231114_103639.png
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

If you're going to park up at the Silver Star snow park don't forget your Snow Park permit which is required from November 1st to April 30th for all users of that snowpark.

From WSDOT

"Why do we move the closure points mid-winter?
While initially we close the pass between mileposts 134 and 171, when winter comes to lower elevations, we have to focus our resources on those communities, so we extend the closure points to Newhalem gate (milepost 121) on the west side, and Early Winters gate (milepost 178) on the east side."

"There is a snow park at Silver Star gate, why don’t we stay open all winter to the park? At a certain point in the winter, the snowpack will become too deep for our equipment to manage and we need to focus resources on priority routes."

"Am I allowed to go beyond the gate for recreation? Yes! But. …remember, this is a very active avalanche area that sees a huge amount of snow and has lots of potential hazards. So always be prepared if you choose to ski, snowshoe, snow mobile, etc., beyond the closure gates."

https://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2023/10/ ... e.html?m=1
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

Here is a screen shot of an email from then WSDOT communications director to other WSDOT personal or FS staff?

I had sent an email to Mr. Adamson asking if there was any truth to a local rumor that the FS had plans to construct a snow park at Silverstar.

In his email, he asks " any truth to this rumor of more parking at the Silver Star Gate".

He also enclosed a copy of my email to him.

When I asked to WSDOT this question, they would not confirm that a Snowpark at Silver was planned.Now I know why. They may not have known.

Were they included in the loop in the early stages of planning?
Capture+_2022-01-01-17-53-56.png
So lets see. From the MVN article it appears that the commercial users and snowmobile club were included in the planning and a few members of the public were asked for their opinion concerning location, however no comment from the general public was solicited by the Forest Service.

FS reasoning; No impact categorical exclusion, so no public comment necessary (but lets see what the commercial guide service wants and give it to them at tax payer expence).

Now we have a Snowpark that is closed during winter.

There's a lesson here somewhere. :o

Oh yea, poor planning by the Forest Service. Our tax dollars at work.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

PAL wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:27 am I don't think a snow park was wise either at SS.
yea, for the last two years since it was constructed, its been used for a little over one month a year before hwy clearing resources are needed to keep local valley residents safe on the non recreational specific State roads.

IMO, this season, that section of Hwy 20 that is used to access the SSS should never have been plowed given our early horrendous hwy conditions down in the Valley.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by PAL »

I read this. In the good ole days, I would see the trailers and the snowmobiles parked at the Early Winters area, and for some reason, it gave me a feeling that these folks were doing something "wild" up there in the mountains, while I was down at the trailhead on my flimsy little trail skis. There were not as many snowmobiles then and there didn't seem to be alot of partying or noise going on. Maybe that has changed. I used to ski up the road, but again, so long ago.
I don't think a snow park was wise either at SS.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

The Snowpark closes on Thursday.

I think the Forest Service may have blundered by building a Snowpark west of an avalanche path that now has an increased chance of sliding because of this summer's wildfire.

I also recently received a copy of a WSDOT to the FS email, via an FOIA request. My reading of that email suggests that the WSDOT was not completely in the loop as to the construction of this Snowpark.

The local rumor is that the placement of the SS Snowpark was an alledged political decision involving Gov Inslee and pressure placed on him by wealthy folks who own property near EarlyWinters, which is where snowmobilers park when the road to access Silver Star is no longer plowed.

But who knows. Judging by who was involved in the decision, the Silver Star Snowpark serves commercial interests very well.

From the WSDOT

"East side closure point on SR 20 North Cascades Highway moves to Early Winters on Thursday

WINTHROP – The east side closure point on SR 20 North Cascades Highway will move from Silver Star campground at milepost 171 to Early Winters campground at milepost 178 this Thursday night. The gate will be closed and a berm will be constructed at the new closure point. The west side closure point will remain at milepost 134/Ross Dam Trailhead.

Every year when winter maintenance needs increase at lower elevations, the closure point is moved to Early Winters. Drivers should never attempt to pass highway closure points. Recreationalists heading past the closure points should always check current avalanche conditions before accessing backcountry areas. "
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

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Quote from today's cedar creek fire report.

"concentration of hazard trees (a snag patch) around Free Stone continues to be an area of concern. Hazard trees inside the perimeter could potentially fall over the line and provide a path for fire to escape. The snag patch is too dangerous for firefighters to enter, so crews are installing water sprinkler systems to mitigate spotting potential where snags threaten the line."

I wonder if this is near the area where a snow park could have been located. Anyone know the exact location of this area.

A few local BC skiers had suggested locating a sno-park in the overgrown area right across from the State parking lot adjacent to the State sand shed.

Can't help thinking what might have been had the Forest Service taken public comment as was suggested to them for that project where public concerns and other potential impacts would have to be formally addressed and mitigated .

Instead the FS went with a 'no significant impact' statement, apparently with commercial interests in the forefront and located a snow park deep into Wildness quality mountainous terrain.

FWIW, I'm a big believer in discussing lesson's learned in order to avoid similar mistakes in the future that may effect pubic heath and safety risk.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

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The effort to keep the HWY 20 plowed to keep the snow park open has left very little snow on the highway and now large sections of pavement are showing.

Pavement doesn't work well for snowmobiling so in essence this snow park has actually decreased recreational opportunities.

I guess that's one of the unintentional consequences.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact, according to the methow Valley news article, that the snowmobile club supported this project when 7 miles of snowmobiling are gone if the snow park remains open throughout the winter.

So the snowmobile club supports closing roads to snowmobiles?

Or do they just want to be closer to The Hairpin so they can rip that up and create conflict with other snowmobilers who also ski?

These are just some of the issues that would have been addressed had public comment been taken instead of a backdoor deal with commercial interests apparently being paramount in the decision-making process.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

I've been informed that a few of the older "smokermobiles" now parked at Early Winters have leaked significant amounts of oil and gas onto the snow. This is a very serious matter.

Both the FS and Department of Ecology have been notified and my understanding is that the department of ecology has immediately responded to assess the situation for hazardous waste cleanup.

This is the exact scenario that we warned our local Forest Service about. It is hard to know why the FS took no steps to address this situation. Perhaps it is because of their new drive to expand recreation mandate.Or perhaps it because the commercial guide service is allowed to park and fuel snowmobiles and to use public facilities as a staging area at Early Winters and Silver Star,to conduct business.

The only saving grace of this spill is that it did not occur in a more pristine mountain environment directly above Silver Star and Early Winters Creek at the Silver Star snow park.

We concerned Stewart's of our North Cascades Mountains have addressed this issue before in trying to mitigate the potential environmental damage(and negative social impact) of North Cascade heli-ski Corporation.

In 2003 NCH was required to remove a permitted fuel cache located on the winter time snow cover over a water time tarn feature at the base of Frisco mountain.

This area features that incredible waterfall that spills into Rainy Lake.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

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Link to Opinion piece in the methow Valley News by Don Fitzpatrick.

https://methowvalleynews.com/2020/12/16 ... ve-effort/

Don confirms that this poorly located project was given a "categorical exclusion" concerning NEPA requirements.

Looking at that list for those involved in this "collaborative effort" once again confirms that the SS Snow Park was indeed a collaborative effort among commercial users for the benefit of commercial users of hwy 20.

The "categorical exclusion" categorically excluded the public from expressing concerns that the Forest Service would be required to address under more stringent regulatory work such as an Environmental Impact Statement or the Lesser Environmental Assessment.

In other words zero accountability to the public other than what best serves commercial interest. This tunnel vision approach to public Land Management very often places public safety and environmental concerns secondary to the interests of the almighty dollar, power and control of public land resources.

So now the Snow Park is closed for the season and rightly so after the WSDOT determined that yes our main roads require all the available maintenance resources to serve the needs of public safety.

Was it a waste of money to construct this Snow Park?

No.

Historically the highway was open through December to Silver Star until snow buildup on the highway required it to be closed. Parking was limited and the area behind the parking area, which is above Early Winters Creek, served as an open toilet. Those concerns have been addressed with the new facilities.

This area could also be used as a summer trail head that would alleviate congestion further up the highway if a new trail is constructed into the Silver Star basin.

Another alternative which was recently put forth in a MVN letter to the editor by Eric Burr is to revisit the American Alps project for the expansion of the North Cascade National Park.

Perhaps all that is needed is New Management which does not place the needs of commercial use over the conservation of our Wilderness quality public lands and does not exclude the public from comment on projects that clearly have a public safety and Environmental impact.

Just one question Don, how is it intended that "heli-skiers will all be beneficiaries of this project"?

Will it be even more commercial expansion and environmental impact into our formerly pristine Wilderness quality North Cascade mountains?
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

The commercial guides moved their machines as soon as notice was given of the closure. They're now parked at Early Winters.

Most likely the ones that remained were from out of the area,as many had not been used for several large storms.

Retired FS officer Dave Graves told me a long time ago it was only a matter of time before some of those $10,000 machines were stolen.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

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Fun CH wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:06 pm Last snowmobile was dug out yesterday. Now all that remains are piles and deep holes.
Were they commercial and private snomos? Would have been great to post a picture of that... :-)
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

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Last snowmobile was dug out yesterday. Now all that remains are piles and deep holes.

All the Cutthroat avy slide paths ran during the last storm with the rain event as well as slabs off the hwy road cut. Prepare to go verticle climbing the debris piles.

Many of the west face and NE faces avy paths slid big in the hairpin.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

mister_coffee wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:45 am
Fun CH wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:05 am ...
Was up on the hwy last Tuesday and there were still 8 snowmobiles parked at SilverStar and becoming buried with snow.

was up there yesterday and there's just mounds of snow so it's hard to tell how many are still buried but there could be a few.

This has created a hazard to navigation along the highway. Beware.
...
That is going to be very exciting for both the snowmobile owners and the plow operators when they are plowing out the highway in April.

My feeling is that unattended snow machines and gear (e.g. fuel cans) should be considered litter and either confiscated or disposed of. You generally aren't allowed (without special permission) to cache supplies or gear on USFS land.
From interacting with both the forest service and the WSDOT, my understanding is that the forest service controls the road use past the winter time closure point.

In this case the Forest Service has deemed it is acceptable to park snowmobiles on HWY 20 with a 7 day limit for overnight parking at Silver Star.

But how could that rule possibly be enforced. Also, since the commercial use machines were parked up there for the entire time that the snow park was open, did that 7 day rule apply to them also?

The issue with fuel spills so close to major water shed creeks is of concern to many.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by mister_coffee »

Fun CH wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:05 am ...
Was up on the hwy last Tuesday and there were still 8 snowmobiles parked at SilverStar and becoming buried with snow.

was up there yesterday and there's just mounds of snow so it's hard to tell how many are still buried but there could be a few.

This has created a hazard to navigation along the highway. Beware.
...
That is going to be very exciting for both the snowmobile owners and the plow operators when they are plowing out the highway in April.

My feeling is that unattended snow machines and gear (e.g. fuel cans) should be considered litter and either confiscated or disposed of. You generally aren't allowed (without special permission) to cache supplies or gear on USFS land.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

New post.

Was up on the hwy last Tuesday and there were still 8 snowmobiles parked at SilverStar and becoming buried with snow.

was up there yesterday and there's just mounds of snow so it's hard to tell how many are still buried but there could be a few.

This has created a hazard to navigation along the highway. Beware.

also I noticed that an Avalanche had come down off of Delancey Ridge and hit the Hwy a couple of hundred yards up from the snow park in an area we call "the guide route" because of their frequent commercial use of that ski line.

Current conditions aren't to good up there with the recent rain and wind.

Reports of rain crust as high as 6,000 feet. Another person said 5000 ft rain crust level. Above that, in the open expect wind crust, powder in trees and wind protected areas.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

Reply to two posters Jan 6

A lot of skiers are changing over to quiet and less polluting 4 stoke machines. My 4 stroke gets 21 mpg and makes less noise than automobile tires on pavement.

There are also electric snowmobiles which I believe one company is selling right now or at least developing. So don't press that button quite yet. ;)

Modern 2 stoke machines inject oil where needed and are also less polluting than the old smokers.

The worst offender for noise up there is the helicopter used for the ski operation. When you're up in the mountains you don't really hear the snowmobiles down on the road too much unless they happen to be high marking near you.

However the helicopter oftentimes sounds like an avalanche when it Rip's over the ridge and you pause for a moment and think that's it I'm hosed. I've had the helicopter fly just above Tree Tops over area that I'm in and at that level it's a risk to Human Health & Hearing.

@pearl, I've seen that number of parked machines up there at 60 or so on busy holiday weekends. A lot of the machines parked up there aren't used on a regular basis. So for example you could live in Wenatchee and just leave an old smokermobile up there for use when you're in the area. That 7-Day limit that the FS imposed was not being enforced (kind of hard to do).
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

Jan. 4 reply to poster

WSDOT announcement.

"On Wednesday, Jan. 6, 2021, the east side closure point will be moved from Silver Star Gate at milepost 171, to Early Winters at milepost 177. Recreationalists should plan accordingly, as vehicles will not be able to access the highway past the closure point beginning Wednesday morning."

After witnessing the scene at the new snow park up at Silver Star, it resembles the start of a Wild West Town, but instead of Miners and loggers it is being built to accommodate newly arrived skiers and snowmobilers as well as cater to an increased tourist trade.

When I looked at that article in the Methow Valley News and saw all the names involved with locating the snow park at Silver Star, many are corporate owners with commercial expansion plans for our wilderness quality North Cascades.

What made the Commerical users think we local BC skiers and snowmobiles wanted a City built in the middle of a winter time mountain paradise. What's next? A warming hut/ snack stand selling tickets to Disneyland west complete with preferred valet parking?

This historical seasonal closure does leave us with the same congestion problem down at Early Winters. The people that live there should not have to put up with smokemobiles blocking the road.

A proper snow park is needed on public land at Early Winters just west of the Okanagan National Forest sign, well away from folks who live on private land near there.

Early Winters can better accommodate the abundant amount of campers currently using Silver Star wiith the proper sanitary infrastructure at a private camp or stay in a local hotel.

Yes, the snow park needs to be where the city infrastructure is now, at Early Winters, and not an extension of a commercial Enterprise up at Silver Star.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

Dec 29 reply to poster


Yes, you have that correct. Note that many of the people involved with this issue were not trying to shut down all off road access to snowmobiles, only frequently and historically used BC ski terrain.

The history of conflict between commercial users and regular people is another story.

As far as grooming goes, there are some issues that have to be sorted.

The hwy was groomed one time this year. After the last big storm the Hwy is very bumpy which makes it hard on people who are just trying to get to their climbing destination as fast and pain free as possible. That includes both skiers and off-road snowmobile users that I've spoken with.

So now we have a snow park that arguably sees the most use in the area and receives the least amount of Grooming.

Unfortunately many people who use the highway do not register their snowmobiles. I came across one $13,000 powder sled used by a BC skier without tags or registration. I'll bet he had fun ripping up the Hwy with 20" of new snow.

Money from registrations and sno-park purchases go towards paying for the grooming.

So if you're not buying tags or registration you're basically a freeloader up there.

Hopefully the Forest Service will step up its enforcement.
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

Posted on Dec 30 as a reply to poster

From reading that article in the MVN, my conclusion would be that the Snow park was placed at Silver Star to benefit Commercial use.

There has already been some conflict issues up there with the commercial users staking out a claim to a part of the area and playing "parking police".

It will be interesting to see how the snow park benefits the Heli-ski operation.

A Snow park at Early Winters on Forest Service land would have alleviated all those congestion concerns and would not have cut out 7 miles of historical snowmobile use in favor of automobile access for BC Skiers.

Bob, those areas near Washinton Pass are historically BC skier terrain and as you stated are now closed to off road snowmobile and snowmobike use.

It was becoming a safety issue for BC skiers having to negotiate deep snowmo track trenches on the ski runs. There is also some Avalanche concern when snowmobiles run up into the same terrain skiers are in.

The forest service is now required to designate what areas snowmobiles can use off road in the winter travel plans as a result of a law suit in Idaho.

Google:

"Judge sides with backcountry skiers in use lawsuit."

And here is the rule change that the FS implemented as a result of that lawsuit.

Google

"Implementation Guidance for the U.S. Forest Service Over-Snow Vehicle (OSV) Travel Management Rule
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

Posted Dec 27 as a reply to poster.

My understanding is that the original plan was to locate the snow park at Early Winters. Just west of the FS NF sign would have been an excellent location as it would have created a much needed fire break as well as mitigate other concerns.

Unfortunately no public comment was solicited for the project by the FS that I saw, most likely deemed to be a non significant impact. Public comment would have forced the FS to mitigate public concerns, and that did not happen that I'm aware of. Although I and a few others were personally asked for our opinion by the former FS employee who handles Recreation.

My comment was that my aging sore back would benefit, however other enviormental, habitat, and public safety concerns out weigh my self interest needs.

This SSS location allows for easy access to avalanche terrain. In other areas where this occurs such as Alpental at Snoqualmie Pass, accident and fatality rates increase as overcrowding and competition for resources increases. We saw this competition here during the last storm on the 21st that initiated a widespread avalanche cycle.

Natural Avalanches tend to occur during the storm or within the first 24 hours of a storm. On the 22nd, the powder freezy at the snowpark reminded me of a ski area, only ski areas control for avalanches.

I also observed on the 22nd, a child of around 8 or 10 was sitting at the bottom of one of the Delancey Ridge avy Run out zones on the Hwy.

Lots of avy's released in the Delancy Ridge area with 16"to 20" slabs at the tail end or just after the storm on the 21st into the 22nd ended. However as you can read in the Avy warning that David posted, the danger was not over ( that warning was extended through today with triggering a persistent weak layer a concern)

On the 22nd, what appeared to be one commercial group with two guides and one other recreational group of four were in one of the Delancy Ridge ski areas. At one point, the skin track went up one of the gullies where an avy had already come down, however that one path is fed by multiple Avalanche start zones some of which had not released.

Of course none of us thought another avy would come down, at least that's what we were hoping and the traveling was easy on the Avy debris in that gully path.

On the 24th, my next solo tour, I noticed a State grader knocking back some of the plow berms so it appears that the State is determined to keep the snow park open.

It should be noted that there is a 7-Day snowmobile parking limit up there. My question would be was this an attempt to mitigate fuel spillage near Silver Star and Early Winters Creek?

How is that ever going to be enforced?

Are commercial user groups exempt from the 7 day snowmobile parking limit?

Why was a snow park placed so near to wintertime designated Goat habitat and wildlife travel corridors?

I will be doing a FOIA request to try to get some facts as to why this snow park was located at Silver Star
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Re: Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

Posted on Dec. 23, 2020

"Yesterday, traffic jams up to the SSS (Sivler Star Snowpark) as State plow drivers work to keep primary roads safely open and plow the 20" of new snow up to what is now resembling a city parking lot. I was told that a large loader was brought up to clear a couple of the lower parking pull outs as narrowing of the road continues as more snow falls. The road is icy even as the snow park access road extends into Mazama. Not much sand to be seen.

One of the concerns I expressed to the forest service and WSDOT, when they were in the process of relocating the new proposed snow park, was that public resources would be diverted away from keeping the main State roads maintained and safe for travel for such things as busloads of school children.

As our State struggles with pandemic driven business closures, unemployment, sickness and death, and as the Governor is proposing taxing capital gains, rest assured that there's plenty of money to accommodate the Recreation needs of backcountry skiers.

Heaven forbid we have to snowmobile an extra 7 miles to reach our leisure activities such as skiing as is the case when the road is closed at Early Winters, the original location for the proposed snow park.

And finally a big Thank you to the hard working State crew who are trying to accommodate this apparently politically situated snow park.
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Snowpark at SilverStar

Post by Fun CH »

This is what I wrote at another site concerning the Snowpark issue.

"This is a release from the WSDOT concerning when we can expect the new Silver Star snow Park closure.

This is WSDOT mail feed Nov, 2020

"Road closure points
The closure points start at milepost 134/Ross Dam Trailhead and at milepost 171/Silver Star Gate. When significant snow begins to fall, WSDOT crews will move the western closure point back to milepost 130/Colonial Creek Campground and the eastern closure point to milepost 178/Early Winters Campground. These weather-dependent changes usually happen in January. Signs along SR 20 are posted in advance of the closure point and updates on the WSDOT website will reflect where the road is closed."

As currently set up, the snowmobile parking at Silver Star extends to below one of the Delancey Ridge Avy slide paths and yes, snowmobiles have parked there this year. Snowmobiles are limited to 7 day parking according to the FS posted sign,

There is also one Avy slide path just east of the SS parking lots. I've only seen that path hit the road once, the potential is there. Whereas Delancey Ridge Avalanches have historically hit the hwy on more than one occasion.

Fortunately as deeper snow builds up in the high mountains , increasing the potential for larger avalanches, deep snow also builds up on the highway. According to the above WSDOT statement, the closure point will move back to early winters, as has historically been the case.

I support the WSDOT's effort to keep the public safe.
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