Kicked Off the Methownet BB

[mister_coffee]

People sure are making a lot of money peddling disinformation:

https://publicintegrity.org/health/coro ... i-vaccine/

I have to ask, what decent person would think any of this is okay? You could make a free speech argument, although I think this is pretty clearly in shouting-fire-in-a-crowded-theatre territory.

Also: note that two of the individuals who Chrystal Perrow was relying upon as sources were prominently featured in the above article.

Y'know, there is a certain thread of speculative fiction that one could describe as "Pandemic apocalypse fiction." What I find interesting if you read those books (some are awful, though some are quite good) in most, if not many, it inevitably is liberals who go all fruit loop about vaccines and conservatives who dutifully line up for their shots and wear masks to protect themselves and others. And in the end there is a "better world" where all of the bad liberals are dead and conservatives go on to build that better world. I just do not understand how all of those authors misread the world (though perhaps not their audiences) so badly.

[PAL]

Let them be very afraid, very afraid of us. Ha Ha Ha. The laugh should be heard as Bela Lugosi would laugh.
Yes, where is the money coming from?
The woman's eyes says it all.
What should be done? Block them from social media and the video has been removed. But there is such a thing as free speech and they will find other sites to spew forth the disinformation. The trouble is a lot people start believing this sh**. Why supposedly intelligent people turn to it, I can't answer but surely somebody has an idea.
They believe the government is evil. It's just become a big bulky entity but not evil. When Trump was around it was becoming so or as we know, dysfunctional.
Was it happening before Covid or did this start awhile back? Covid revealed alot, it would seem.
Maybe intervention? They can believe what they want but they really want the backing of many others to make their twisted beliefs be true.
This is a tough question.

[mister_coffee]

I just want to know what you folks think should be done with people like this:

https://matthewremski.medium.com/anti-v ... 724ea216e0

Also, someone is paying people like that to spread disinformation. Where is that money coming from?

[PAL]

If people care about the community at large, they would get vaccinated. Most of the 25 and now more Christians that got Covid were not vaccinated.
Yes, contact Walt, but he may not be able to get the vaccine due to his medical condition. 25 is a very high number, in a small community, to have medical conditions that don't warrant taking the vaccine. They just didn't want to.
These are people we all know.

[mister_coffee]

David, none of rationalizations you have stated in these recent posts, all the bobbing and weaving ,IMO could possibly justify the disrespect that you have shown Walt.

...

Chris, I guess we can just agree to disagree.

In the end, you can prove me wrong if you wish. Reach out to Walt and kindly reason with him and persuade him to get vaccinated.

[PAL]

A lot of the problems with the Methownet BB stems from people making posts with a lot of misinformation. Walt's did have misinformation but alot of it was just his opinion. But it does get frustrating if a person tries to present the facts and others don't want to hear the facts. So I try to give the correct info out, but of course my opinion sneaks it's way in too.
I realize their minds cannot be changed unless they make that discovery on their own. I find myself feeling sorry/sad for Walt because he is divisive, which leads myself and others to be divisive.
Here is Michelle Mondot's response. I thought she sums it up well. Pearl

Walt,
I don’t know what you mean by “opposing opinion will never be respected in any form with you PEEPS factual of not if it is against the agendas this valleys NEW BLUE AGENDA”.
What NEW BLUE AGENDA? This valleys community has been working together to build our resilience, take care of our people and eco systems for as long as I have lived here, over 30 years. This has not been a liberal or conservative ongoing process but a community wide project, churches, non-profits, 2nd home valley supporter(mostly those rich elites from the west side who have given and given and given to enrich all out lives, especially the most vulnerable) and anyone who wanted to work with others for our good.
We have always been able to work together with minimal them vs us conflicts.
In this new more polarized, resentful and ugly political environment people who think different thoughts have become the enemy; family, friends and neighbors. That is no way to shape a good future for all of us.
I thought by now we would have developed a more open, inclusive and healthy way to live together. But it seems we have a long way to go to have a society that works for all life, human and others. To have any chance for that ever happening we are gong to have to all give up our commitment to being right, and the trap of human supremacy over all other life forms. Can we do that? At this point I’m not sure, it’s not looking good for our grandchildren with the constant conflict and pain we dish out on a regular basis to others.
May we all learn to live and thrive together.
Mich
Libby creek

[Fun CH]

David, none of rationalizations you have stated in these recent posts, all the bobbing and weaving ,IMO could possibly justify the disrespect that you have shown Walt.

But I don't completely blame you. I blame the Methownet BB for providing a platform for unfettered
speech. As noted, the owners don't even read the BB or assign a moderation team. They depend upon members informing on other members, all of which invites posts such as yours and a few others there directed towards Walt. (These are just facts)

You are smart enough where you could have offered valid counter point using facts to counter Walt's misunderstanding. Sure, he may not have understood the facts but at least an effort would have been made to help.

The lurker people (your argument) would have been informed of the facts if you had chosen that path.

But what did you really give them? What example did you set? What path did you stray down?

[mister_coffee]

I do have sympathy for Walt, but that sympathy is finite.

Then I think of the hundreds of thousands of people who have died from this disease under awful conditions, many of whom did not have to die if they would have taken even basic precautions or if our health care and public health systems were even basically prepared for an inevitable pandemic. With all that death how much sympathy should I spare for someone who chooses not to take a lifesaving medication because of their political ideology?

In the end I doubt anything I say or do one way or another would persuade Walt. On the other hand, there are a lot of people out there who just lurk on the BB and rarely post, and if some of those are fence sitters with respect to the vaccine they can perhaps be persuaded. People in general have superb moral gyroscopes but piss-poor moral compasses, so if they see others do something and receive social approval for it they are more likely to go along with it -- and the opposite holds, if you are considering doing something which others consider ridiculous and worthy of mockery and contempt that definitely weighs in your calculations, even if you don't know the people doing the mocking.

The closest thing I can see to a moral imperative in this whole mess is that anyone who posts vicious disinformation on the vaccines (e.g. you have to quarantine after receiving the vaccine because you could infect unvaccinated people) needs to be shut down hard and with no mercy. Not just for their sake but because disinformation is its own kind of epidemic and spreading malignant disinformation harms others as well.

Also I keep coming back to the fact that we need to treat adults as adults. When adults are choosing to do something bad and ultimately self-destructive that also harms others I do not know if being gentle is the correct way to proceed. Sometimes people just need a good kick in the butt.

[PAL]

I do think I remember Walt's wife said he does have a physical illness. He does get defensive and takes things personally and thinks he is being attacked.
I know not to argue back at him. Michell Mondot had a wonderful post about the very thing you are talking about Chris, about working things out as a community and at the same time talking to Walt in a non combative way. I can't find her original post but I did copy it. Unfortunately there is weird word spacing. Maybe I can correct it and post it.

[Fun CH]

Perhaps there is a better way? Maybe Walt would get the vaccine if you all showed him some respect and kindness?

I would compare Walt's post with Chrystal Perrow's post in an earlier thread. Chrystal's post was woefully misinformed but respectful. People replied respectfully. By contrast Walt was looking for a fight and came in with guns blazing. I doubt any change in tone on my part would have changed things in the least.

And, at least in my opinion, trying to reason with someone who makes a post like that is giving them a respect they have not earned or shown to others. By trying to engage with them in good faith you are actually elevating their point of view to a reasonable one that adults should take seriously, again something that his post clearly did not merit. In the end, having any debate with someone whose head is in that space is like trying to reason with a 2-year-old or a puppy. You aren't going to change anyone's mind and most likely you are going to look ridiculous for trying.

In his later post he had two words that convinced me that there was no possibility of constructive engagement with him: "Your facts." To be 100 percent clear, there are not "Your facts" and not "my facts", only "the facts." If you aren't going to even engage with reality it is useless to engage with you at all.
And if your ideology requires you to have a set of "alternative facts" to make your worldview consistent make sense, then you ought to spend some time doing some hard thinking about your ideology.

I honestly grieve that so many of our friends, neighbors, and family members have fallen down this rabbit hole of insanity. I hope to one day welcome them back to reality.

If you want to appoint yourself peacemaker and work to eliminate divisiveness in our community, I'm all for it. But you aren't going to make that happen by arguing with me over my posts. I also doubt you are going to get very far without acknowledging the deeper problem and its asymmetrical nature.

so why engage at all if you think you can't reason with someone? And why go one step further and imply he's a fool and he and his kind should just die?

That was the premise of my original post, that our supposed community bulletin board which is supposedly here to serve the community only serves to further divide our community and foster the spread of disinformation and hate.

Maybe all Walt needs is a little love and respect thrown his way no matter how disagreeable you think he is.

[mister_coffee]

Perhaps there is a better way? Maybe Walt would get the vaccine if you all showed him some respect and kindness?

I would compare Walt's post with Chrystal Perrow's post in an earlier thread. Chrystal's post was woefully misinformed but respectful. People replied respectfully. By contrast Walt was looking for a fight and came in with guns blazing. I doubt any change in tone on my part would have changed things in the least.

And, at least in my opinion, trying to reason with someone who makes a post like that is giving them a respect they have not earned or shown to others. By trying to engage with them in good faith you are actually elevating their point of view to a reasonable one that adults should take seriously, again something that his post clearly did not merit. In the end, having any debate with someone whose head is in that space is like trying to reason with a 2-year-old or a puppy. You aren't going to change anyone's mind and most likely you are going to look ridiculous for trying.

In his later post he had two words that convinced me that there was no possibility of constructive engagement with him: "Your facts." To be 100 percent clear, there are not "Your facts" and not "my facts", only "the facts." If you aren't going to even engage with reality it is useless to engage with you at all.
And if your ideology requires you to have a set of "alternative facts" to make your worldview consistent make sense, then you ought to spend some time doing some hard thinking about your ideology.

I honestly grieve that so many of our friends, neighbors, and family members have fallen down this rabbit hole of insanity. I hope to one day welcome them back to reality.

If you want to appoint yourself peacemaker and work to eliminate divisiveness in our community, I'm all for it. But you aren't going to make that happen by arguing with me over my posts. I also doubt you are going to get very far without acknowledging the deeper problem and its asymmetrical nature.

[mister_coffee]

I somehow knew you'd bring that up...

The thing is, mainstream environmental organizations such as the Sierra Club have repeatedly disavowed and denounced such actions. The Sierra Club was loudly denouncing Earth First! back in the mid-1980s. And the people I knew active in environmental issues were universally appalled by such looniness. I participated in a number of non-violent protests at that time and it was heartbreaking to me how hard we worked to make sure that everyone, most especially non-participants and innocent bystanders, would not be endangered by our protests. Heartbreaking because we were apparently considered violent terrorists for holding up signs in front of a ranger station.

Speaking for myself, I backed away from some environmental organizations (this was thirty years ago for context) because certain people in those organizations were playing cute about supporting violent actions by ELF and Earth First!. So I do practice what I preach.

However, mainstream Republic Party leaders refuse to denounce violent actions and threats of violence by their supporters. Rank-and-file members are choosing to ignore the ugly truth or make ludicrous claims that there are "false flag" operations designed to discredit them.

Also, the scale of the violence coming from the right dwarfs that coming from any other part of our society, and arguably you'd have to go back to organizations like the KKK to describe anything comparable in our country's history. And yes, the Democrats of the time played cute and enabled those murderous clowns, to their everlasting shame.

In the case of Laurie Jones, our "lean Republican" county council did not publicly denounce the death threats. And my understanding is that they dragged their feet on providing additional protection for her.

I agree that you cannot control the actions of crazy people, especially violent crazy people. But if those people attach themselves to your banner you need to go out of your way to disavow them. That's just good hygiene.

[Fun CH]

@David, here is one of those posts where you try to be helpful to combat the misinformation, then it turns to disrespect. Perhaps you could have educated with facts on how the vaccine doesnt give a person covid 19 instead of doing the 'internet thing'?

Quote from Walt and David.
"You are to mask up and try to isolate, limit public exposure for at least 2
> weeks after the shot as your body will be sluffing covid like crazy till
> this magic shot kicks in. MORE OR LESS THE ADVISEMENT

Those aren't the guidelines. Not even "more or less". Not at all in fact.

Posts like this leave me to think we should just let the poor fools die and get on with things.

Also, I've had the shots for almost four months and my 5G reception is better than ever!
David Bonn"

And the current last post, more disrespect directed towards Walt who is also a bit disrepectful but makes a good point that his POV is not being respected.

"Walt, you lack the cognitive ability to discern fact from fiction. Good luck with your ongoing battle with reality.
Bill Stinson"

Perhaps there is a better way? Maybe Walt would get the vaccine if you all showed him some respect and kindness?

[Fun CH]

Quote: "The point is that if you share that ideology and openly advocate for it you are enabling those violent crazy people by convincing them that they have support and their cause is "legitimate". End quote

Wait, so if I support environmental issues I am somehow supporting and enabling the criminal behavior of extreme, presumably left wing environmentalists?

I know of one local instance where a local (I assume with left wing views) received death threats because of his corporations environmental abuses. So this criminal activity is not exclusive to those who identify with right wing ideology.

What I'm saying is that here in the Methow it's time to tone this type of divisive rhetoric directed towards our fellow community members who are only guilty of exercising their right not to be vaccinated.

Hopefully there will be enough of us that receive the vaccine that we are able to "carry the water" this time for the benefit for all the members of our community.

[PAL]

As I see it, do you think pro vaccine people would hurl death threats at Laurie Jones and others? I think not. Another point I have been thinking about is this.
The main reason for the lockdown was to keep our hospital system from crashing. As it was, morgues were having a hard time keeping up.
So the lockdown helped prevent incontrollable spread. It spread rapidly, but not like India.
So yes, people get to choose whether or not to get vaccinated. But, who are they thinking of? Not the nurses and doctors that went through hellish days saving people and helping people. They are not thinking of their neighbor. Who are they thinking of?
David, like your last post, especially this sentence, "The point is that if you share that ideology and openly advocate for it you are enabling those violent crazy people by convincing them that they have support and their cause is "legitimate". If you don't loudly and clearly denounce such behavior you are only encouraging it."
There is something going on with the Republican party. It is getting dangerous. Here is a link to an article. Maybe it is a bit radical for some, but is worth a ponder. https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/06/22 ... orld/print
So glad we can give links here. Thanks.
Pearl
PS-let me know if you can't open it. I'm still sort of new at this stuff. Luddite that I am.

[mister_coffee]

Laurie Jones Ok County Health Director and others received death threats via emails and phone calls. This was posted on FB quite some time ago.
No not on the BB.

yes that has been common all around the country. However there is no logic in lumping in methownet BB antivaxxers with those commuting those crimes. (that was the point. Not where that threat was posted)

Nor is there any logic as David suggests that the MNBB antivaxxers need to rethink there postion because others who may or may not share a similar political POV have committed thoses death threat crimes. Exactly how are all antivaxxers responsible for the illegal actions of others?

...

Like you said, those death threats to public health officials have been common all across the country.

So have death threats against officials administering elections, including volunteers who are just trying to do a job out of a sense of patriotism and have no ideological dog in the fight. Also it seems there were multiple accounts of people shooting others who asked them to wear a mask.

So there is a pretty consistent pattern on the right of tolerating violence and advocacy for violence. Which is antithetical to our ideals of more or less peaceful political competition.

The fact that officials of one political party seem to wink and nod at these activities and not take them seriously is a clear example of a moral rot in that part of the ideological spectrum. The fact that elected officials saw the need to pass laws making it legal to run over people protesting in the streets is another example.

This pattern continues with describing the 1/6 insurrectionist terrorists as "tourists" and "patriots" and attempting to rewrite history and make that insanity normal.

The point is that if you share that ideology and openly advocate for it you are enabling those violent crazy people by convincing them that they have support and their cause is "legitimate". If you don't loudly and clearly denounce such behavior you are only encouraging it. In the case of Laurie Jones, we got crickets from both the County Sheriff and County Commissioners -- I'd expect at least a "don't make death threats against government employees", and how hard would that be anyway?

Outside of the short term, and probably only if they manage to "win" the civil war they seem so determined to start, it is hard to see how violent threats, advocacy for violence, and acts of violence will manage to do anything but alienate people to their cause and point of view. Bluntly speaking it is a position and choice you'd only make if you think you are losing. So if you do strongly hold those political views you should be even more loudly denouncing those violent kooks, as they are making the changes you advocate far less likely and probably impossible.

I just don't buy the "we're not like the violent terrorists, but we believe the same things." Whether it comes from Republicans in 2021, or from Sinn Fein about the IRA, or from the Islamic Brotherhood about ISIS or Al-Qaeda. And yes, I do think the Republican Party has cast itself into exactly the same moral pit.

In point of contrast, when the BLM protests got out of hand (and they did get out of hand) many leaders in the Democratic Party loudly and openly and unambiguously denounced the violence and destruction of property. And rightly so. So there isn't really a "both sides do it" argument here. As if it would be any morally less foul if there was another side doing it.

[PAL]

One of the persons threatening Laurie, did not like them contact tracing her and her family. This was on FB. The woman didn't indicate if she didn't believe in the vaccine. Right, we don't know entirely if it is anti vaxxers committing the crime.
Ok, you brought up South Cr. You may have seen on the other BB that I said that the owner was upset that people had disrespected his property, so I don't blame him for keeping out people that vandalized his signs and perhaps littered. As I said Louis Lk. was a pit.
But in the same vein the owner thought it was ok to cut out an old logging road and he was stopped by the FS. That is the public's land.
He should not have done that. So he did not respect the FS or us.
For verification about it being the road, call Rosemary Sigfried at the FS.
Pearl

[Fun CH]

Laurie Jones Ok County Health Director and others received death threats via emails and phone calls. This was posted on FB quite some time ago.
No not on the BB.

yes that has been common all around the country. However there is no logic in lumping in methownet BB antivaxxers with those commuting those crimes. (that was the point. Not where that threat was posted)

Nor is there any logic as David suggests that the MNBB antivaxxers need to rethink there postion because others who may or may not share a simular political POV have committed thoses death threat crimes. Exactly how are all antivaxxers responsible for the illegal actions of others?



The fact is that people now have the right not to receive a covid vaccine. That is currently the legal situation (fact) whether you or I like it or not.

Here is another situation where many of those on the left slanted MN BB cannot bring themselves to accept or respect other community members rights (South creek being another example) and then desire to publically call them out.


@David, I could not find those two posts on the MNBB where you were talking about the unvaccinated dying. Did I miss those, did you delete them or were they removed by BB staff?

Anyway glad you clarified your comments on this because to me it came across as what I had previously stated.

FWIW, Help can be as simple as first doing no harm by staying clear of using divisive rhetoric.

Perhaps consider this quote:

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-JFK

[PAL]

Laurie Jones Ok County Health Director and others received death threats via emails and phone calls. This was posted on FB quite some time ago.
No not on the BB.

[mister_coffee]

...

if that is the case then perhaps those folks, as members of our community, need our help and not our ire.

The fact remains that at this moment, covid vaccines are not required and therefore it is their right not to be vaccinated.

Wasn't it you that was hoping for their death from Covid to solve your desire?

That is a radical position.

I doubt anyone on the BB is threatening Public Health officials. Lumping them in with criminals is also a radical position designed only to support your position.

I don't know about "help" versus "ire." From my standpoint the situation is analogous to having a friend or family member that decides to invest their life savings in a fur-bearing trout farm, or a jackalope ranch, or in mining dogecoin. Most reasonable people would tell that friend or family member that they were out of their minds. In some ways I think we have made the mistake of going too easy on anti-vaxxers and people who have fallen down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, and because of that we have infantilized them rather than treat them as rational and responsible adults. The results have been as predictable as they are unfortunate.

To be clear, I don't want to see anybody die. In fact one reason I am so furious is that the deaths now are so unnecessary. The truth is that my compassion for someone who sickens and dies after refusing life-saving medicine (which the vaccine is) is going to be tiny. And if someone who refuses the vaccine causes someone else to sicken and die, my compassion for them is tiny squared. And if people are free to make bad choices, they should also one hundred percent own them -- to me that means they should also refuse any health care which might be required by their choice of refusing the vaccine (I'd make a reasonable exception for people who have valid medical reasons not to take a vaccine, and there are quite a few such people).

At least for myself, if I find that people who share my beliefs are committing serious crimes in the name of those beliefs, that is a damned good sign I should reexamine said beliefs. It is kind of shocking that other supposedly reasonable people would not think so.

If being a reasonable adult who is exasperated and at wits end with other adults who are not at all reasonable is radical, I guess I am.

[Fun CH]

...
I have no interest in "getting along" with people who advocate for utter nihilistic insanity, throw public temper tantrums about wearing masks, and who make anonymous death threats to public health officials. And this isn't a "both sides" thing. One "side" has clearly lost touch with reality here and the other has not.

if that is the case then perhaps those folks, as members of our community, need our help and not our ire.

The fact remains that at this moment, covid vaccines are not required and therefore it is their right not to be vaccinated.

Wasn't it you that was hoping for their death from Covid to solve your desire?

That is a radical position.

I doubt anyone on the BB is threatening Public Health officials. Lumping them in with criminals is also a radical position designed only to support your position.

[mister_coffee]

Pearl, AFAIK I have not been kicked off the other board. At the same time honesty compels me to admit that for every post I've made on the COVID and vaccination threads on that board, I've canceled another two that just weren't likely to be constructive.

It is really a sad and crazy time in our lives when we are confronted with a deadly disease and we need to argue with people about preventing needless death. It doesn't bear thinking about what might have happened if this disease had a five or ten percent (or even higher) fatality rate, like its close relatives SARS and MERS.

[PAL]

David, I hope you did not get kicked off the other BB. If you have, then I should have too. But agree with what you say, especially with this little Covid surge in Twisp and possibly the Valley now, going on. Thanks.
Pearl

[mister_coffee]

... Many threads that serve no purpose other than to further divide a community, drifting in and out of political agendas from both the radical left and radical right.

...

Please try to get along.

I suppose I am one of the persons that is aimed at.

From my perspective, advocating that people take a safe and effective vaccine, and being opposed to vicious disinformation about the same, is not "radical left". It is just being a sane and functional adult.

If you had a friend, family member, or neighbor who was making choices that actively harmed themselves, their family, and their community would you say nothing and just let the harm continue? Seriously? Maybe that is "divisive" but maybe it is also standing up and doing right by people who you don't want to see sicken or die.

I have no interest in "getting along" with people who advocate for utter nihilistic insanity, throw public temper tantrums about wearing masks, and who make anonymous death threats to public health officials. And this isn't a "both sides" thing. One "side" has clearly lost touch with reality here and the other has not.

[Fun CH]

Sad to see what's going on at the Methow.net BB right now. Many threads that serve no purpose other than to further divide a community, drifting in and out of political agendas from both the radical left and radical right.

"Clowns to the left of me jokers to the right, here I am Stuck In The Middle With You".

Please try to get along.