Kicked Off the Methownet BB

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Re: Kicked Off the Methownet BB

Post by Fun CH »

pasayten wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:38 pm Jeesh... another thread on methownet talking about the fire and alf had a critical of fire fighters reply... POOF... thread gone... :-(

P.S. I do have a copy of alf's reply... :-)
I find it best to no longer read what he posts.
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Re: Kicked Off the Methownet BB

Post by pasayten »

Jeesh... another thread on methownet talking about the fire and alf had a critical of fire fighters reply... POOF... thread gone... :-(

P.S. I do have a copy of alf's reply... :-)
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by Fun CH »

pasayten wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:14 am Not kicked off, but methownet removed my post letting folks know the link to the Fire Info BB thread on this BB... and didn't add it to their "fire info links" page... Can't stand a better source for info!!! Jeesh... lol... :-)

In actuality, the methownet BB is not well suited for the easy dissemination of important information in significant events affecting the community due to its curtailed features found on most bulletin boards... Pictures, pdf files, and offsite links. They may do this to a lack of staff time for moderation during normal times, but I firmly believe in times like this, these features should be turned on.
agree. The NMBB is not even good for fire emergency situations. Lots of hate, rumor, hearsay, conjecture, allegations, posts without providing the source, opinions offered that are not based on fact, and even agreeing with people's actions to break the law who are going into closed areas of the National Forest.

So not a community resourse at all and no longer relevant except for buy and sell stuff.

Contrast that to your fire emergency page Ray which has been most helpful in providing factual fire information with links to the source.

Facts matter, especially during an emergency.

@David. I called that one the day before the emergency. You did need help and most likely from some who have been hesitant to receive the vaccine and supported Trump.

Sorry to hear you lost some property and good that you thanked thoses members of our community who helped you during your time of need.

I'm hoping you're starting to understand my point. We're all in this together.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by pasayten »

Not kicked off, but methownet removed my post letting folks know the link to the Fire Info BB thread on this BB... and didn't add it to their "fire info links" page... Can't stand a better source for info!!! Jeesh... lol... :-)

In actuality, the methownet BB is not well suited for the easy dissemination of important information in significant events affecting the community due to its curtailed features found on most bulletin boards... Pictures, pdf files, and offsite links. They may do this to a lack of staff time for moderation during normal times, but I firmly believe in times like this, these features should be turned on.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by Fun CH »

Fraulein57, Also nail on the head with a bit a humor.

As you say, David has gone beyond the simple shaming (his self proclaimed goal) towards "hostility"directed at
other members of our community.

This hostility also seems politically motivated because presumably only Republicans are refusing to be vaccinated. Although Trump received the vaccine even after his life was saved by advances in medical science (an infusion of Regeneron) after he contracted covid 19.

Bruce is also on this same rampage at the MNBB although he's only goes so far as calling people who have concerns about the vaccine as "ignorant".

In this quote from the MNBB, concerning the state of Missouri, he fails to mention that California is also seeing increased cases of Covid 19.

"Today the State requested emergency federal aid to battle the outbreak. So,, the states that have been vaccinated get to pay for the ignorance of the states (like Missouri,Alabama,Utah, Arkansas etc)that did not get vaccinated. Bruce Herron Wolf Creek"

At first I thought that there is some sort of privileged supremacy attitude reflected in his statement. Does he also include the 11% percent black population of Missouri as being ignorant?

A simple scan of the facts would show that many minority communities have not had equitable access to the vaccine. But let's not let facts get in the way of our opinion right?

We all suffer from ignorance at one time or another in our lives but in this case both David and Bruce should perhaps consider the way they treat ordinary people living in our diverse community.

Or perhaps they may want to continue the unfounded divisive rhetoric and check the person's political affiliation and vaccine statis so they have the option to refuse help with any fire or other emergency Services they may require.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

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The kindest and most generous word in the English language is "look." Or as some people say, you can "do your own research." That doesn't mean forwarding posts from quacks or kooks on Facebook or Instagram, or going down a rabbit hole on Youtube. All of the research papers with respect to COVID are publicly available online and you can go read them and draw your own conclusions. I've read about 40 of them, and there are probably at this point hundreds of times that number.

You can draw some conclusions from those papers, though:
  • The vaccines are not just safe, but extraordinarily safe. Reactions serious enough to cause hospitalizations happen in about one in 100,000 people getting vaccinations, and fatal reactions happen in about one in 1,000,000 vaccinations. I say "about" because at those very low rates it is very hard to suss out what was caused by a vaccination and what was not. This is made even more complicated by the fact that we vaccinated older people first, and older people are more likely to die and more likely to go to the hospital than younger people. If you are over sixty your odds of dying on any given day are probably on the order of 1 out of 10,000 -- which makes it very challenging to sort out the signal from the noise.
  • The vaccines are not just effective, but extraordinarily so. Right now hundreds of people per day are being hospitalized for COVID in Los Angeles County. The number of people who are vaccinated who are being hospitalized is zero. Source: https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... vaccinated
  • You could make a "wait-and-see" argument in March or April about whether it was a good idea to take the vaccine. You can't make that argument today because more and better data has came out. Once again, do your research and read some of the papers. I'd also point out that scientific research about the efficacy of a new treatment is seldom as unambiguously positive as it is for the COVID vaccines.
  • For reasons we do not yet understand, in the most recent "wave" more younger and healthier people are becoming seriously ill and requiring hospitalization. That shouldn't be surprising since we have done a pretty good job of vaccinating vulnerable people (mostly older and less healthy) so the variants most likely to thrive will seek other hosts.
In the end, nobody is stopping you from being well-informed. If you make that choice for yourself you will have to live (or die) with it.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by fraulein57 »

Nail on the head....community shamers. Shame on YOU for disrespecting other people's rights AND privacy.

Are you really so much more enlightened? I don't see evidence of it. Your arguments for vaccinations (which these are not did you know that?) appear based in your own personal fear/anxiety, and propensity toward hostility toward everybody else. Altho you seem to feel self annointed as some kind of authority on the matter.

This is right out of central planning. You are falling right smack into the trap of division. Maybe you mean well but you are not informed enough to convince anyone of much of anything except a certain meanness like suggesting people be given a jab with a dull needle. What the h. is that? But central planners are LOVING IT.

I would like to see you turn a corner. But you will not likely, you are entrenched and even living in yesteryear. It's your right. Stay there but try to stop projecting onto everyone else.

Still I wish you some fun.... form a Stammtisch with only approved shamers or other approved persons, marvel about your viral protection devices, injection sites, the next booster! Have a few latex protected thumb wrestling matches. Petition for a community shamers tax credit! I could actually see it happening. Meanwhile others go on about their daily lives MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS vaccinated OR NOT. That's a respectable approach.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by Fun CH »

Yea, but I see you and Bruce as part of the problem. You both are definitely not helping to convince people that being vaccinated is a good idea.

Can't you see that if your goal is trying to convince people to become vaccinated you are not succeeding. That rhetoric just causes people to dig in further.

From my perspective, to use your analogy, you've already ignited the burn pile and now I'm trying to convince you to put your fire out.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by mister_coffee »

Chris, with respect, I've said that we need to agree to disagree.

I do not think I owe very much diplomacy to people who are determined to harm others. I certainly wouldn't show patience or diplomacy to someone who decided to ignite a burn pile today, or to someone who insisted on driving while intoxicated. Choosing not to get vaccinated (again I make an exception for people who cannot because of valid medical reasons) is morally in the same place in my view.

Shame is a powerful tool. Showing opprobrium and disapproval is an effective way to change behavior.

Enough said.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

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@David, will you and Bruce please stop your divisive rhetoric on the MNBB? Obviously the BB staff in many cases will not intervene. Although they did recently get rid of one of Bruce's divisive threads after Judy correctly called people out for their divisive behavior.

Here is a quote by you.

"So those who choose not to get vaccinated are harming me and others through their selfishness, laziness, and ignorance.

This is why I think vaccine refusers should be rounded up, strapped down, and vaccinated with a dull needle" end quote

If the goal is to convince people to become vaccinated, then clearly that divisive rhetoric is not the way to do it.

Many don't know that before I started working in the construction industry to help build this community, I was a Wa. State certified VR counselor. So I do have some informed understanding when I say this type of rhetoric and other misinformation others spew out from the left of center on the MNBB is not helpful.

What exactly is your goal?
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by Fun CH »

alfrandell wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:41 am Keep working on it, Chris.
To correct your pretty serious allegation

what "pretty serious allegation"?

You said what you said and I quoted you and offered a counter point in a civil manor. :roll:

Quote: "Any idea why someone would do that?"

Yes, to get a potentially harmful dog off the streets. You and I possibly have a different opinion on what our civic duty requires.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

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PAL wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:43 pm
I totally agree with you on the tree cutting incident. I seem to remember some reporting in the paper. So the pilot did not reveal the other sites? Why didn't he. You said he took the fall. Did someone threaten him?
no, NCH did not report additional unauthorized cut sites during the law enforcement investigation of the first unauthorized and illegal cutting site. During the late summer of 2012, the same year as the initial cut site was discovered, the public discovered other white bark pine trees destroyed at other unauthorised heli- Landing sites.

I asked that those sites be investigated by law enforcement just the same as the first discovered site was where the pilot received a warning ticket.

I fully expected that investigation to happen and more tickets issued for those responsible.

The FS chose to handle the new cut sites solely as a permit violation issue. The NCH permit was placed on probation for five years as a result. They also had to pay close to $6,000 in restitution cost to restore the area. The Forest Service placed the value of old growth whitebark pine trees at $100, which is the same cost as a nursery pine tree.

When asked who did the cutting at those new sites, the FS repeatedly told us that the owners were taking responsibility for the actions of pilot, but would not disclose who did the cutting.

That's why I say the pilot took the fall. From what I witnessed, three of the cut sites that were discovered did not have a spot capable of Landing a helicopter prior to the cuts.

Did the pilot leave a multi million-dollar machine on a narrow high mountain Ridge while he snow shoed or skied a half mile away to do the cutting? Seems unlikely.

We will never know because no law enforcement investigation was completed on the additional sites and no report is available to the public.

It is against the law to cut down White Bark Pine trees both here and in Canada. A similar incident occurred at a resort in Canada where white bark pine trees are listed as endangered. That Canadian Resort received a multimillion-dollar fine.

In the US apparently holding a special-use permit shields a Corporation from the law.

So is the public treated differently than corporations holding special use permits in our national forest?

Didn't some folks cutting willow trees while holding a survival course up the twisp river receive a $40,000 fine? Wasn't there a complete law enforcement investigation and wasn't there an undercover officer embedded in the survival course. (I don't remember the facts of that case).

So should Mr.Cramer receive anything more than a warning ticket for his actions? I think not.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by PAL »

South Cr trail owner had closed it before the BB rant, but the BB comments may have made him even more determined to keep it closed. So I get your point. I don't know if anyone has even tried to contact him. I have a letter written but haven't sent it, just because chances are I may not make it up there. It's a nice respectful letter. He did say in the paper that it may require a judicial review. And sounds like he has paperwork to try to prove that there may have been historical roads in. But those were most probably put in by mule or horse but not mechanized.
I totally agree with you on the tree cutting incident. I seem to remember some reporting in the paper. So the pilot did not reveal the other sites? Why didn't he. You said he took the fall. Did someone threaten him?
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

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Pearl, I'd actually forgotten that you had contributed to that thread.

Quote:"What, you want everyone to get along and not disagree? I do think we can disagree without being nasty." End quote

Imo Jeff and Maria have a community responsibility (Civic duty) to actually moderate a public forum that they run. We know they don't even read the thing according to Maria, and as I pointed out conversations do get nasty, full of disinformation that's harmful, and divisive.

Most likely, according to the property owner the South Creek trail would be open with permission if not for that nastiness on the bulletin board directed towards the property owner.

Remember when I said here that if you show the owner some respect you might get what you wish for (that trail open) That didn't happen at our good old community bulletin board.

As far as the dog bite story goes, no police report was filed because,

Quote;

"my encounters with county officials have not been going smoothly, and i asked them not to give me a police attack to follow the dog attack" end quote

A police attack? The police force here don't attack anyone. They are caring members of our community and I for one am grateful for their service to our community.

No police report= no investigation= an allegedly harmful dog could kill next time.

So yeah the dog attack was unfortunate but in my opinion does not justify a personal attack directed against our community member police. But that's OK at the good old community bulletin board.

And no I did not voluntarily leave the bulletin board.

I got kicked off the BB right after I told the story where NCH owner Paul Butler verbally assaulted me and borderline threatened to me with four warnings to "stay out of Mazama", "because we don't like narcs".

That attack occurred at the twisp community center I assume because of my involvement in informing the Forest Service of his corporations destruction of federally listed sensitive species whitebark pine trees.( I believe the number was 60 trees). After those incidents, the heli pilot took the fall even though the owners admitted to cutting trees.

The pilot received a warning ticket and the permit was placed on probation for five years for failing to disclose to the FS other unauthorized cut sites during the initial investigation along with other permit operational discrepancies.

It was my civic duty to report those tree cutting incidents that I'd witnessed and it was my civic duty to file a police report after the attack occurred. I did both.

But apparently you can't tell that story on our good old community bulletin board Methownet BB.

So attack our community police on the BB, OK.

Tell the truth (publicly testify) about an attack by a local Corporation owner , not OK.

IMO, we all have a civic duty to serve our community based on truth.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by PAL »

What, you want everyone to get along and not disagree? I do think we can disagree without being nasty. I was trying to inject some humor in my post about the bitten biting back and then yes, I called the Newbies cowards for not signing. So I could have not said that.
But, you know, that this is not a perfect world. Do you want the other BB to be perfect or can there be discussions?
If a dog was attacking me, I would do everything in my power to keep it from biting and if that involved knifing it, I would. It could mean my life. Don't discount that. It could happen. I like dogs alot when the owners are behaving.
It would be nice to bring the community together in peace, but on the other hand, we are not warring. Disagreeing, and it's ok. If everyone is the same, it would not be good. Drones.
So right now, are you and I having a discussion and is it a civil discussion? I think so. I like you! I think the other BB has improved from the way it used to be.
Did you get kicked off or did you take yourself off? I think Jeff and Maria said that your posts(and some of mine too, although I was not told that as I did not talk to them) were not going anywhere, but that is no reason to kick you off? Why haven't I been?
I'm almost thinking some of the staff find their BB entertaining at times, although maybe they are too busy to read it until someone complains. It's about time for a complaint to come up, so one or 2 or those posts will be removed.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by Fun CH »

And now the MNBB is talking about arming yourself while walking through our neighborhoods. A bit of macho posturing going on there.

It is unfortunate that someone got bit by a dog, however as the story progressed, we now know the bite occurred when the guy was trying to stab the dog with a knife.

Quote:

"Supported by it's owners, the pet was able to bite me while i was trying and failing to get the blade into the pet. " end quote

I guess now that this place is becoming what many of us tried to escape from by moving here decades ago, its time to riffle up and go for a neighborhood walk.

Yet another example of the MNBB moderation style bringing our community together in peace (sarcasm).
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

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And while I'm quoting J. Haidt, here is an except of an interview with him.

"MT: David Goodhart has described this as the distinction between the ‘anywheres’ and the ‘somewheres’.Theresa May famously said, “If you believe you're a citizen of the world, you're a citizen of nowhere.” So you can see these things playing out.

Is the link between polarisation and identity politics that identity politics essentially says that the most important thing in determining your political stance is you; the person you are; the tribe you belong to?

JH: Well, I don't know about that.

In my recent book with Greg Lukianoff, The Coddling of the American Mind, we offer a different take on identity politics. We say there are two versions. There is one we call ‘common humanity’ identity politics – where you draw a circle around the relevant community and you say ‘we're all Americans’, or ‘we're all British’, or ‘we're all human beings’. And then within that circle you might say, ‘some of our brothers and sisters are being denied justice or dignity’. That’s a more positive and loving approach, and this was used by Martin Luther King in the United States, and by Nelson Mandela when he got out of prison. It’s not zero-sum – it’s an attempt to say, we have differences in our community and we need a political process to adjudicate them, but it can be done in the spirit of ‘we're all in this together’.

What has arisen in United States and in the UK is what you might call ‘common enemy’ identity politics, which is based on the idea that there are several binary dimensions. Intersectional identity politics – while I understand the idea behind it, the idea that identities do interact, and it is based on an important insight – breeds a kind of ‘us versus them’ attitude within communities, within universities, within groups, that leads to intractable conflict. People see everything as a zero-sum game and you're fighting for slices of a fixed pie.

So I think the problem is not identity politics per se, it's the subtype or the flavour of identity politics."

https://www.thersa.org/blog/2018/12/haidt
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

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mister_coffee wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:18 am
Fun CH wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:15 pm David, none of rationalizations you have stated in these recent posts, all the bobbing and weaving ,IMO could possibly justify the disrespect that you have shown Walt.

...
Chris, I guess we can just agree to disagree.

In the end, you can prove me wrong if you wish. Reach out to Walt and kindly reason with him and persuade him to get vaccinated.
Do you really believe that publically calling a member of our community a fool and wishing their death is not disrespectful?

Here is another J Haidt quote to consider, key word "empathy".

"If you really want to change someone’s mind on a moral or political matter, you’ll need to see things from that person’s angle as well as your own. And if you do truly see it the other person’s way—deeply and intuitively—you might even find your own mind opening in response. Empathy is an antidote to righteousness, although it’s very difficult to empathize across a moral divide."
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by Fun CH »

PAL wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:38 pm They believe the government is evil. It's just become a big bulky entity but not evil.


Probably more like a distrust of government. Given our countries history, including instances of genocide, slavery, using the military to bust up coal miners seeking better working conditions, turning fire hoses on pipeline protesters during the winter, and most recently, a madman in charge seeking to dismantle our democracy, etc, etc. that is not an illogical position to hold.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

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Qoute" I have to ask, what decent person would think any of this is okay? "End quote

Hear are a few quotes by J. Haidt, a moral psychologist who has been all around the world studying human ethical and moral systems. These are some of his conclusions from that study. Hope this helps.

"Morality binds and blinds. It binds us into ideological teams that fight each other as though the fate of the world depended on our side winning each battle. It blinds us to the fact that each team is composed of good people who have something important to say."

"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you’ll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you"

"Anyone who values truth should stop worshipping reason."

"The human mind is a story processor, not a logic processor"

"W]hen a group of people make something sacred, the members of the cult lose the ability to think clearly about it. Morality binds and blinds."

"We should not expect individuals to produce good, open-minded, truth-seeking reasoning, particularly when self-interest or reputational concerns are in play. But if you put individuals together in the right way, such that some individuals can use their reasoning powers to disconfirm the claims of others, and all individuals feel some common bond or shared fate that allows them to interact civilly, you can create a group that ends up producing good reasoning as an emergent property of the social system. This is why it's so important to have intellectual and ideological diversity within any group or institution whose goal is to find truth (such as an intelligence agency or a community of scientists) or to produce good public policy (such as a legislature or advisory board)."
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by mister_coffee »

People sure are making a lot of money peddling disinformation:

https://publicintegrity.org/health/coro ... i-vaccine/

I have to ask, what decent person would think any of this is okay? You could make a free speech argument, although I think this is pretty clearly in shouting-fire-in-a-crowded-theatre territory.

Also: note that two of the individuals who Chrystal Perrow was relying upon as sources were prominently featured in the above article.

Y'know, there is a certain thread of speculative fiction that one could describe as "Pandemic apocalypse fiction." What I find interesting if you read those books (some are awful, though some are quite good) in most, if not many, it inevitably is liberals who go all fruit loop about vaccines and conservatives who dutifully line up for their shots and wear masks to protect themselves and others. And in the end there is a "better world" where all of the bad liberals are dead and conservatives go on to build that better world. I just do not understand how all of those authors misread the world (though perhaps not their audiences) so badly.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by PAL »

Let them be very afraid, very afraid of us. Ha Ha Ha. The laugh should be heard as Bela Lugosi would laugh.
Yes, where is the money coming from?
The woman's eyes says it all.
What should be done? Block them from social media and the video has been removed. But there is such a thing as free speech and they will find other sites to spew forth the disinformation. The trouble is a lot people start believing this sh**. Why supposedly intelligent people turn to it, I can't answer but surely somebody has an idea.
They believe the government is evil. It's just become a big bulky entity but not evil. When Trump was around it was becoming so or as we know, dysfunctional.
Was it happening before Covid or did this start awhile back? Covid revealed alot, it would seem.
Maybe intervention? They can believe what they want but they really want the backing of many others to make their twisted beliefs be true.
This is a tough question.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by mister_coffee »

I just want to know what you folks think should be done with people like this:

https://matthewremski.medium.com/anti-v ... 724ea216e0

Also, someone is paying people like that to spread disinformation. Where is that money coming from?
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by PAL »

If people care about the community at large, they would get vaccinated. Most of the 25 and now more Christians that got Covid were not vaccinated.
Yes, contact Walt, but he may not be able to get the vaccine due to his medical condition. 25 is a very high number, in a small community, to have medical conditions that don't warrant taking the vaccine. They just didn't want to.
These are people we all know.
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Re: Kicked Off the BB

Post by mister_coffee »

Fun CH wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:15 pm David, none of rationalizations you have stated in these recent posts, all the bobbing and weaving ,IMO could possibly justify the disrespect that you have shown Walt.

...
Chris, I guess we can just agree to disagree.

In the end, you can prove me wrong if you wish. Reach out to Walt and kindly reason with him and persuade him to get vaccinated.
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