How to talk to someone about vaccine hesitancy

[woodman]

brad will just copy a phrase from your response, and base another wacky post on that.
you will be directed to view a long misinformation film.
I have tried to help brad.
I have wired a building on his property, tried to help him to clear his packrat stuff, etc.
It is no use.
He is unable to learn.

Just another gaslighting tactic rooted in selective memory is what I see. What Alf doesn't say is that we did a trade. He got something too. I did him a favor as well. He got a trailer frame that he uses for one of his tiny homes in exchange for 200' of Romex and one hour that he spent wiring up a couple outlets. Now, in his memory I was the only one to benefit. Also, he never helped me with cleaning up my property, and my property is just fine. He perseverated over and over about how I needed to bring in a big dumpster, and he was chomping at the bit at the prospect of using a trac hoe to tear some things up, but he was being unrealistic, and ended up being a nuisance. Now I am unable to learn!!!

[mister_coffee]

Normally I just ignore all that fruit bat stuff.

But "negative efficacy" is so egregious that it demanded a response.

[mister_coffee]

... According to IPAK's findings, there is zero efficacy after the first shot and negative efficacy after the second shot.

"negative efficacy"????

How is that even possible? Are you saying that while one shot makes no difference, two shots somehow makes you more susceptible to disease? There isn't a known immunological process that would make that happen. Yes, it is imaginable that some toxin might make you more susceptible to infection (really any infection) in the short term, but it is hard to imagine how you could make an agent that would make you more vulnerable to a specific disease by interacting with the immune system. And it is even more hard to imagine how such an agent would not work at all with one dose and would work with two doses.

The simplest explanation is that someone just made that line up.

[pasayten]

According to IPAK's findings, there is zero efficacy after the first shot and negative efficacy after the second shot.

Sorry, but ridiculous claim... quack, quack...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lyons-Weiler
United States Court of Federal Claims Special Master Christian J. Moran concluded in 2020 that Lyons-Weiler was "wholly unqualified to opine on the question of vaccine causation"; the decision related to a lawsuit in which Lyons-Weiler had testified claiming that a woman was injured as a result of the HPV vaccine.[2][6] His February 2020 claim that SARS-CoV-2 contains a genetic sequence proving that the virus was probably engineered in a laboratory was discredited by researchers and fact-checkers.

[woodman]

Maybe some mainstream interpretation of science is rooted in corruption, and is nothing more than a wishful thought rooted in fraud because many people are in on the gravy train. Some of it could be called "scientism", a sort of religion...The 2sides live in a kind of parallel universe because the dominant narrative depends on people not looking at the other side since they may discover the man behind the curtain manipulating the masses.

https://odysee.com/@drsambailey:c/covid ... part-one:e

Brad, I am 74 y/o and have been heavily involved and trained in real science all my life... We are very far apart in our beliefs in this subject and will never agree.

Dr. James Weiler is the founder of IPAK (Institute for practical and applied knowledge). I believe it is worth 45 minutes of your undivided attention to find out his point of view. I think of him as a statistics/science nerd.... Maybe it's the glasses and the unkempt look. According to IPAK's findings, there is zero efficacy after the first shot and negative efficacy after the second shot.

https://brandnewtube.com/watch/covid-re ... p27HY.html

[pasayten]

I found the article interesting as it weaves tidbits from both sides into one article...

[pasayten]

Covid-19 Vaccines or Infections: Which Carries the Stronger Immunity?

Denise Roland - Wall Street Journal

Evidence grows that infections provide as much protection as vaccines, prompting some experts to suggest a nuanced approach to vaccine mandates

Evidence is building that immunity from Covid-19 infection is at least as strong as that from vaccination. Scientists are divided on the implications for vaccine policy.

The role of immunity from infection, which scientists have been trying to figure out since the outset of the pandemic, has gained fresh significance amid the controversy over vaccine mandates.

Vaccines typically give rise to a stronger antibody response than infection, which might make them better at fending off the virus in the short term. Infection triggers a response that evolves over time, possibly making it more robust in the long term. A combination of both types appears to be stronger than either alone. But the jury is out on whether one form is stronger than the other, and whether their relative strength even matters for vaccine policy.

The comparison is further complicated by the emergence of new variants, such as that identified this month in southern Africa, which may be more contagious and be better at evading vaccines.

One thing is clear: Vaccination is a far safer, more reliable strategy for acquiring immunity, given the risks of serious illness or death from infection. But viewpoints splinter about whether people who have had Covid-19 before need a full course of vaccination, and whether documented prior infection should count as proof of immunity—as is the case in some other countries, including much of Europe.

Immunity from infection hasn’t been studied as extensively as vaccine-mediated immunity. But over the course of the pandemic, clues have emerged to suggest the two are at least equivalent.

Several peer-reviewed studies conducted in the early part of the pandemic, before widespread vaccination, found that people infected during the first waves were around 80% less likely to test positive during the next surge. Those studies spanned healthcare workers in the U.K., the Danish population and patients at the Cleveland Clinic, a large health system with facilities mostly in Ohio and Florida.

A recent Israeli study found that people who had been vaccinated with two shots of the vaccine developed by Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE —the most commonly used there—were 13 times more likely to later get infected than those with a prior infection. The study, which hasn’t been peer reviewed, tracked confirmed infections between June and August this year for people who had been either vaccinated or infected in January or February.

It also suggested that immunity from infection is longer lasting than that from vaccination.

More real-world evidence would be needed to make the case that immunity from infection is superior to that from vaccination, said David Dowdy, associate professor of epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

A factor that may have exaggerated the protective benefit of infection in the Israeli study was that vaccinated people could be more likely to travel abroad and bring the virus back to their vaccinated families, pushing case numbers up in that group, he said.

Data from the U.K.’s Office for National Statistics showed that, between May and August, a prior infection offered around the same level of protection against the Delta variant as vaccination with either the Pfizer shot or the one developed by AstraZeneca PLC and the University of Oxford.

Some studies suggest the opposite. One, conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, found that, among people hospitalized with a respiratory illness, Covid-19 was over five times more common among those who were unvaccinated and had an earlier infection compared with those who were fully inoculated and hadn’t had the virus before. Critics say the study, which hasn’t been peer reviewed, had flaws that likely overestimated the relative strength of vaccination.

The CDC said in a recent review of the current scientific evidence that both fully vaccinated and those previously infected with the virus have a low risk of subsequent infection for at least six months.

“It is complicated but…we’re at a state in the world where [vaccination and prior infection] seem equally protective,” said Monica Gandhi, professor of medicine and associate chief of the University of California San Francisco’s division of HIV, infectious diseases and global medicine.

The two forms of immunity appear to have different strengths. Vaccination with mRNA vaccines produced higher concentrations of neutralizing antibodies—the type that prevent the virus from entering cells—than infection, although levels waned in both groups, according to a recent paper published in the journal Nature by researchers at the Rockefeller University in New York.

Immune memory, however, appears to be stronger following infection. The Rockefeller research group found in an earlier study, also published in Nature, that the antibodies produced by memory B cells—which quickly multiply in subsequent encounters with the virus—continued to evolve at least a year after infection. The study on vaccinated people found that the antibodies produced by their memory B cells didn’t change much over time.

One possible reason for the difference, they said, was that pieces of virus remain in the body for weeks after infection, whereas vaccine particles fade away faster. The upshot: The immune memory of people who have been infected is ready to produce a broader array of antibodies than of people who have been vaccinated.

Michel Nussenzweig, the professor who led the Rockefeller research, said the papers suggest that vaccination likely offers better protection from infection but that this protection wanes rapidly. However, the quality of long-term immune memory, which is key to responding to infection and staying out of the hospital, is superior in people who have had an infection, he said.

So-called hybrid immunity—that in people who have had both vaccination and infection—has been shown to be strongest of all. The Rockefeller researchers found that vaccination boosted levels of antibodies in the blood and memory B cells in people who had been infected before. The effect also appears to work in the other direction: A study of vaccinated people who were infected during a July 4 holiday weekend outbreak in Cape Cod found that they produced high levels of antibodies and T-cells directed against the virus. That study, led by researchers at the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, hasn’t been peer reviewed.

Questions remain, though, about whether people who have had Covid-19 need a full course of vaccination. A study from New York University found that although one dose of the Pfizer vaccine significantly increased antibody levels in people with a prior infection, a second dose produced a more muted response.

Another study from researchers at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York found that a single dose of the Pfizer or Moderna Inc. vaccines produced more antibodies in people who had previously had Covid-19 than two doses did in those who had never encountered the virus. It also found that people with prior infection report more unpleasant side effects from vaccination. The authors concluded that offering a single shot to those who had already had Covid-19 wouldn’t negatively affect their antibody levels and would spare them from needless pain. The NYU and Icahn studies haven’t been peer reviewed.

Some doctors say the mounting evidence on the role of immunity from infection supports a more nuanced approach to vaccine policy.

Among them is UCSF’s Dr. Gandhi, who supports a single dose of vaccine in people who have had the virus. She also thinks prior infection should carry weight when it comes to vaccine mandates. “Mandating [vaccination] so that someone [unvaccinated] loses their job if they have a proven prior infection is going too far,” she said.

Marty Makary, a professor at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, also advocates a case-by-case approach to vaccination in people who have already had Covid-19, especially among children. “There’s no scientific basis for vaccinating people who had the infection,” he said. “It’s not clear to me that the benefits of vaccination in someone who has circulating antibodies outweighs the risk.”

Yet others say universal vaccination—as recommended by the CDC—still makes sense. That is mainly because the vaccines are safe and have been shown to enhance the immune response of people who have been infected before.

One issue with a more targeted approach is that immune responses to infections vary, and there is no way to sort out people whose infection led to a strong response from those who didn’t. Although responses to vaccination also differ, the dose is fixed, making it less variable, they say.

“The risk of vaccination is extraordinarily low,” said Tom Frieden, former director of the CDC and chief executive of Resolve to Save Lives, a nonprofit initiative that works on strengthening epidemic preparedness. “The benefit is high and the uncertainty with infection makes it so that you can’t make that a replacement to vaccination.”

Write to Denise Roland at Denise.Roland@wsj.com

[Fun CH]

Woodman: 'Before its News' is a notoriously fake website.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... s_websites

Wow,from reading Wikipedia, so if you are on that site and click on a link there, you could be hacked?

Or does just clicking on the link that Woodman is posting to that site open someone up to a hack attack?

[Rideback]

Woodman: 'Before its News' is a notoriously fake website.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... s_websites

[pasayten]

Seven doctors contract Covid after attending Florida anti-vaccine summit

The Guardian - Maya Yang - 1h ago

Seven anti-vaccine doctors fell sick after gathering earlier this month for a Florida “summit” at which alternative treatments for Covid-19 were discussed.

“I have been on ivermectin for 16 months, my wife and I,” Dr Bruce Boros told attendees at the event held at the World Equestrian Center in Ocala, adding: “I have never felt healthier in my life.”

The 71-year-old cardiologist and staunch anti-vaccine advocate contracted Covid-19 two days later, according to the head event organizer, Dr John Littell.

Littell, an Ocala family physician, also told the Daily Beast six other doctors among 800 to 900 participants at the event also tested positive or developed Covid-19 symptoms “within days of the conference”.

Littell raised the suggestion the conference was therefore a super-spreader event but rejected it, vehemently saying: “No.

“I think they had gotten it from New York or Michigan or wherever they were from,” he told the Beast. “It was really the people who flew in from other places.”

He also said: “Everybody so far has responded to treatment with ivermectin … Bruce is doing well.”

The Beast said sources close to Boros said he was gravely ill at his Key West home.

Ivermectin is an antiparasitic which has uses in humans but is predominantly used in livestock such as cows and horses. Authorities say it has no proven use against Covid-19 and can be dangerous if taken in large quantities. The US Food and Drug Administration has not authorized or approved ivermectin as a Covid treatment and has said clinical trials are ongoing.

Boros has claimed ivermectin is “working where it’s being used around the world” as a Covid treatment.

In the same Facebook post, he condemned Dr Anthony Fauci, Joe Biden’s chief medical adviser, as “a fraud” and said “big pharma is playing us for suckers”.

In a July interview with Florida Keys Weekly, Boros responded to criticisms of his post, saying: “It breaks my heart that a town like this has made something so political and hateful. What’s wrong with people? I just want to help patients and keep them from dying.”

He also claimed that he gave a seriously ill Covid-19 patient ivermectin and “within six hours he was talking without coughing”.

At the summit in Ocala, Boros criticized his 97-year-old father for getting a Covid vaccine, saying: “He had been brainwashed … He got it. He didn’t tell me. I was very upset. I wanted to give him a spanking. He got both jabs.”

Earlier this year, a significant study supporting ivermectin as a Covid-19 treatment was withdrawn after data was found to have been falsified and patients nonexistent.

The FDA says people should “never use medications intended for animals on yourself or other people. Animal ivermectin products are very different from those approved for humans. Use of animal ivermectin for the prevention or treatment of Covid-19 in humans is dangerous.”

[woodman]

https://beforeitsnews.com/eu/2021/11/de ... 79594.html

[Rideback]

Woodman, I opened the link. This is not a study, this is an observation with few details and it is not peer reviewed by other doctors that would apply known research.

Like the last piece that came out along the same lines, once it was peer reviewed it was demonstrated to have bad math.
https://www.kwqc.com/2021/10/05/fact-ch ... -bad-math/

Bottom line is that the link you gave says the inflammation lasts for 2.5 months after the vaccine. But when a patient gets Covid, studies have shown the inflammation lasts much longer.

[Rideback]

New studies out about the efficacy of wearing masks.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021 ... YOyNYo5jCY

[woodman]

These are the main audiences for AHA publication: Cardiologists, cardiovascular surgeons, electrophysiologists, interventionalists, internists, nurses and others interested in cardiovascular medicine...


https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161 ... 6Gr55KaMbs

[Fun CH]

^https://theconversation.com/10-ways-to- ... ion-132246

"10 ways to spot online misinformation"

"If something you see online causes intense feelings – especially if that emotion is outrage – that should be a red flag not to share it, at least not right away. Chances are it was intended to short-circuit your critical thinking by playing on your emotions. Don’t fall for it.

Instead, take a breath.

The story will still be there after you verify it."

[Rideback]

Woodman, I have a cousin who heavily relied on information he gathered watching Odysee. He and I used to get into it regularly until I started fact checking every video he used for his arguments that he found at Odysee. Not one speaker, not one story, not one premise ever held up to fact checking. Most didn't even survive just common sense thinking. But I respect my cousin and so we have ongoing conversations except these days he has learned to recognize when he's being played.

Similar to youtube there is monetary compensation for people who post on Odysee, my understanding it is crypto currency, but make no mistake people are making money off those conspiracies and often, because there is no regulation, those same people are not upstanding Americans. They are Iranians and Russians and others. They may not be the faces you see on the video but they are producers.

Just this week the FBI/DoJ announced arrests of 2 Iranians for this kind of sleeze and make no mistake about it, unless you dig into what you're being told there, you are vulnerable. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/two-iran ... n-designed

[pasayten]

Pasayten Bulletin Board

Freedom for all voices of the Methow Valley...

[woodman]

Feel free to censor or skip over this video if you don't agree with his opinions. Personal censorship is fine, but mob censorship not so much. I am glad you allow freedom to share our differing points of view on this platform...

https://brandnewtube.com/watch/corrupti ... l72q7.html

[pasayten]

Maybe some mainstream interpretation of science is rooted in corruption, and is nothing more than a wishful thought rooted in fraud because many people are in on the gravy train. Some of it could be called "scientism", a sort of religion...The 2sides live in a kind of parallel universe because the dominant narrative depends on people not looking at the other side since they may discover the man behind the curtain manipulating the masses.

https://odysee.com/@drsambailey:c/covid ... part-one:e

Brad, I am 74 y/o and have been heavily involved and trained in real science all my life... We are very far apart in our beliefs in this subject and will never agree.

[woodman]

Maybe some mainstream interpretation of science is rooted in corruption, and is nothing more than a wishful thought rooted in fraud because many people are in on the gravy train. Some of it could be called "scientism", a sort of religion...The 2sides live in a kind of parallel universe because the dominant narrative depends on people not looking at the other side since they may discover the man behind the curtain manipulating the masses.

https://odysee.com/@drsambailey:c/covid ... part-one:e

[pasayten]

Doctors need to give patients informed consent even in the military, but this doctor is being court martialed for following the hippocratic oath to do no harm...

.https://brandnewtube.com/watch/dr-sigol ... oFruw.html

I would find a different doctor than this quack...

[woodman]

Doctors need to give patients informed consent even in the military, but this doctor is being threatened with court martial for following the hippocratic oath to do no harm...

.https://brandnewtube.com/watch/dr-sigol ... oFruw.html

[Fun CH]

^ that's a prime example on how you talk to people about vaccine hesitancy.

Everyone one makes bad choices in life.

Thank God for the Angels that help us when those choices don't work out so well.

[pasayten]

He nearly died from Covid after choosing not to get vaccinated. Later, he returned to apologize to the medical staff
By Noah Sheidlower and Christina Zdanowicz, CNN
Updated 8:47 PM ET, Mon November 1, 2021

(CNN)After battling Covid-19 for almost a month and being released from Harborview Medical Center in Seattle, Richard Soliz returned to the hospital in late October. But it was not for medical treatment -- it was to apologize.

Soliz, a graphic artist who had not received a Covid-19 vaccine, spent 28 days on a ventilator and heart monitor at the hospital in late August and much of September.
"I am certain that there is truth to this virus, and not being vaccinated leaves you vulnerable to the extent of possibly really taking a person's life," Soliz said. "I personally know that, because I was not vaccinated. I did not act, I wasn't certain, and I nearly lost my life."
Soliz told CNN that he struggled to breathe and felt as though he could have died at any moment. But he wanted to say sorry to those who cared for him, thanking everyone he saw at the facility who played a role in saving his life.

"I was literally on my deathbed and hanging from a string, and [doctors and nurses] tended to me as perfect strangers," Soliz said. He added, when "you're in a position that I was in, it resonates differently, and I just had to say something."
He said that he was embarrassed to say that he was unvaccinated when asked by hospital staff. Few patients in the ICU, though, say that they are, hospital officials said.
According to Dr. James Town, a pulmonologist and director of the medical ICU at Harborview, about 99 out of 100 patients admitted to Harborview for Covid had not been vaccinated when Soliz was admitted.
Soliz said that he did not know anybody who had gotten sick from Covid until he got a fever and struggled to breathe. He noted that he was hesitant to get the vaccine in part because of misinformation on social media, where he read about claims of microchipping, harmful side effects and questions concerning government approval of vaccines.
"It was just not knowing, and what I did know was confusing and contradictory, so when a person is not totally convinced of something and doesn't have the proper information to determine a yay or nay, perhaps they'll do what I did and do nothing," Soliz said.

But doctors and nurses were not quick to judge or blame him.
According to the pulmonologist, very few Covid-19 patients have returned to thank the medical personnel who helped them. He noticed that if they did, it was much more common for those who spent time in the trauma and brain injury units.
Soliz recently spoke with CNN affiliate KOMO about his experience. The station showed him making the rounds to speak with staff.
"Oh, wow, you look great," nurse Kimmy Siebens told him. "To see you alive is just amazing. You look so great."
"We do put so much of our own heart into the care and worry," Siebens said. "We never really get to see people get that much better. And so it's amazing. It makes it feel like it's definitely all worth it, you know?"
Town, who cared for Soliz during his four-week stay at the hospital, told CNN that Soliz was "so openly warm, grateful and appreciative" for the care he received.
"I knew that the spirits in our hospital and our unit had been down because of how hard things have been lately and difficulty with staffing shortages and things like that," Town said. "I just felt like that was the kind of message that our staff needed to hear that people really did appreciate them."

On one hand, Town acknowledged that it's easy to lose compassion for people who chose not to be vaccinated, since "despite your hard work, the most vocal people are still telling you that you're trying to harm them and their families." On the other hand, Town found hope in people like Soliz, who not only showed appreciation for medical staff, but also used his voice to convince others to get vaccinated.
"I think we often feel like we're here to take care of whomever whenever, and everyone can make bad decisions and everyone still deserves a chance," Town said.
Soliz is now fully vaccinated, but his lungs are scarred, and he gets winded easily after any little bit of activity, he said. He still has some cloudiness in his thoughts and memory, but doctors told him that in six months he could start seeing significant healing in his lungs.
But Soliz encourages people to get the vaccine, not just because of what he went through. He admitted that he was a "tremendous burden" on medical staff, many of whom work 12-hour shifts and have received little time off.
"That's the most scariest and vulnerable feeling that I've ever had in my whole life ...." Soliz told CNN. "I don't want that to happen to anybody."

[Fun CH]

^ "People who get vaccine breakthrough infections can be contagious."--CDC

So we who are vaccinated hopefully will wear effective masks in public indoor spaces to reduce the risk of spreading a virus we may not even know we have because the vaccines are so effective, breakthrough cases are likely to be asymptomatic.

"Even when fully vaccinated people develop symptoms, they tend to be less severe symptoms than in unvaccinated people. This means they are much less likely to be hospitalized or die than people who are not vaccinated."---CDC

People who aren't vaccinated yet can also wear a mask to reduce the risk to those who can't get a vaccine due to medical concerns, access or are under the age to receive one.

So Ray, the conclusion is that even vaccinated people can spread the virus to the vulnerable, unless you know, mask to reduce that risk.

Just heard on the news that the world wide death toll due to Covid is at 5 million.

.