Standard Crises of Care

[PAL]

Read today's MVN as there are several good letters regarding the shape we are in. Dr. Hogness, especially, with Central Wa. Hospital gives the stats at the good reasons people should get the vaccine. There has been a chart and other info circulating on FB of the Israeli study and it is the total opposite of the stats that Dr. Hogness gives. I think David originally pointed out that the Israeli study was flawed.
Patience running thinner and thinner.

[PAL]

OK, I get it. If someone is really in a life threatening situation, such as a heart attack, yes, we would impact. This is a good example to clarify.
Knew you were vaxxed. No one told me, I just knew.

[Fun CH]

The point I'm making is that right now we are being asked to curb our risky behavior so if we need help there is room in the hospitol for not only Covid patients, but for other emergencies as well such as a heart attack.

So yes, if you engage in what's considered unnecessary high-risk Sports right now and suffer a serious leg break you might possibly affect someone else's chances for speedy heart attack treatment.

Yes, right now we are putting other people at risk if we engage thoses high risk sports.

It makes no difference whether the hospitols are overcrowded with unvaccinated covid patients because that's the reality right now.

If you recall, same thing was requested at the very start of the pandemic when Covid patients were just Covid patients and not relegated to the special class of being on vaccinated or not.

Guide services all around the country closed and posted that it was irresponsible to take such unnecessary risks during such times of crisis.

I solo BC skied during that time. We actually had an extended BC ski season after the highway was plowed to Silver Star and then the highway re closed. It was very uncrowded and pure Bliss.

I understood that my actions were selfish, but I Justified it because I trusted my skills. Someone else could easily look at that behavior and say oh you're just rationalizing to support your self interest, and they'd be right.

BC skiers similar to me who realized the importance of exercise to their well-being and immune systems, we're getting shamed all over the backcountry ski internet forums for engaging in high-risk activities when Hospital space was needed for covid patients.

And then there's always the risk that a rescuer is going to be harmed because they're trying to save your arse.

So why was engaging in high-risk activities selfish and worthy of being internet shamed at the beginning of the pandemic and not now?

The only thing that has changed now is that a serious case of covid is mostly preventable in this country if you are vaccinated, which I am.

[PAL]

Anonloser,
If you will notice it was not I that brought up the risk of hiking and biking. It was Chris, as you can see from his quote that you posted.
I agree with you about it not being a fair comparison. So, please do not attribute this to me. Welcome to the conversation that Chris and I were having. I gave him personal examples of why hiking could be a risk for me. I don't think I would be a burden on the hospital system as much as all the unvaxxed Covid patients. That's where Chris and I disagreed. In truth the 3 of us could be in more agreement than we think.
Yes, people refusing the vaccine are being selfish but that is my opinion along with umpteen others.
Pearl

[anonloser]

[/quote]

Are you still hiking in the mountains and biking Pearl? If so, do you need me to tell you that you are making a poor decision because it's contrary to medical advice? If you wind up in the hospital because of a accident from those high-risk activities, you will be the one placing an increased burden on the medical system.

Personally, I'll take the risk and I'm guessing so will you along with most everyone else.

I personally respect your dedication to remaining empathetic and as objective as possible through all this, but I'm going to disagree on this one. This argument sounds exactly like the old "why not ban cars because they're dangerous" argument.

Pearl going out for a bike ride or hike and suffering an accident due to misfortune or otherwise regardless of risk mitigation, is not a fair comparison.

A fair comparison would be someone screaming down a hiking trail full of people on their bike yelling about not needing a helmet because they have never broken a bone before.

Someone who has opposed vaccination has refused to take preventative measures and is adding unnecessary risk to both themselves and those around them. The regular people, or bikers/hikers in this scenario are the ones out there who got vaccinated but still choose to go to a movie or eat dinner.

A more real world hypothetical would be driving safely all your life and then getting broadsided by a drunk driver. Do we blame the sober person for being on the road? Is it their fault for being in the way of someone who ran a red light or swerved into oncoming traffic?


We can argue personal freedoms all day, but bottom line, people voluntarily refusing vaccines are being selfish.

adjective Concerned chiefly or excessively with oneself, and having little regard for others.
adjective Showing or arising from an excessive concern with oneself and a lack of concern for others.

[anonloser]

And can you instruct me on how to highlight a quote, like others do.
Pearl

Click the " button in the top right corner of the post you would like to quote. The rest should be familiar.

[PAL]

So you are talking about risky behavior:

"So I guess its OK to ignore what is best for public health when it suits our perceived self interest even if others are put at risk by our behavior?"

People going around without being vaccinated or masked are also ignoring what is best for public health, don't you think? When hiking and we break a bone, are we putting others at risk by infecting them with a deadly, shifty virus? Is this apples and oranges? There is a correlation, yes, in that we occupy an emergency room doctor, who could instead be treating a multitude of very ill unvaccinated Covid patients. That sounds harsh but is this the reality?
My broken bone is not going to infect anyone. My broken bone would take up a doctors time. My broken bone, I guess could kill someone else, in that doctor would attend to me and not someone with Covid. So are we really irresponsible?
Shaming people doesn't work, as you say. Having a loved one or themselves getting the virus might help them change their mind.

And can you instruct me on how to highlight a quote, like others do.
Pearl

[Fun CH]

Yes, still getting out hiking and biking and in the back of my mind is the question, what happens if I get injured? My medical Dr. does not agree with other medical people. She thinks its great I get out.
Just think though, if I got injured and there were no or hardly any Covid cases in the hospital, would I be a burden then? I think not.

no you would not be a burden in normal times, but the reality is these are not normal times. The medical profession has asked us not to take risks right now that might land us in the hospitol.

You and I and most people are going to ignore that warning as it applies to risky sports because we understand the benefit exercise brings to our physical well being.

So I guess its OK to ignore what is best for public health when it suits our perceived self interest even if others are put at risk by our behavior?

Should we be publicly shamed on the internet for engaging in Risky behavior during a hospital bed shortage crisis?

Or are we making private personal decisions concerning what we think is best for our health and it's not anybody's business but our own?

"COVID-19: 3 hospitals in Washington state’s Okanogan County ‘stretched to the limit’

"When hospital systems are overwhelmed, decisions must be made about who gets the resources that are available. During crisis standards of care, providers must shift away from maximizing the best care for each patient to maximizing care for the most people.

“This means some patients might not get the lifesaving care they need. When there are too many patients, hospitals need to help as many people as possible.”

http://globalnews.ca/news/8190982/covid ... -to-limit/

[PAL]

Yes, still getting out hiking and biking and in the back of my mind is the question, what happens if I get injured? My medical Dr. does not agree with other medical people. She thinks its great I get out.
Just think though, if I got injured and there were no or hardly any Covid cases in the hospital, would I be a burden then? I think not.
Climbing up a steep rocky hillside, last week, with loose rock, I balked at one point. Howard asked me why and I yelled out, "I might get injured". What a way to think. Needless to say, I got a grip and went on up. Fear can be worse and paralyze and be more dangerous than just doing. It was not in any way technical. I just had a moment of doubt.
We have curbed our more intense hikes and bikes and don't always go to the top of the mountain. Plus we are getting older and are realizing our limits. Darn.
Accidents can happen anywhere, at any time, doing a myriad of activities.

The risk is worth taking versus the mental strain of not going out.
There is a book I am reading. It is called "Doom, The Politics of Catastrophe" by Niall Ferguson. I think you'd like it. It is not your Doom and Gloomer book at all. I got it from the library.
Pearl

[Fun CH]

Yes, Chris, we are blessed with privilege, but life also involves choices people make as well. By many standards, we were born into privilege, but we made choices in our lives. And yes, not everyone has those opportunities to make choices, but alot do. These are choices to help their lot in life.

People make bad choices all the time and I'm certainly no exception. I've had quite a few poor judgement decisions in the mountains that because luck intervened I survived the mistake.

There is a lot of research in the field of decision making and how we ignore objective data in favor of our desire.

As far as medical decisions go, I just am not willing to question the choices that people decide are right for them. That is their personal choice and their business.

Conversely, the true die hard anti-vaxxers (and people in Texas who desire to interfere with Women's Health needs) need to understand the same viewpoint and give the medical advice preaching and active interference a rest.

Wear an N95 mask if you are vaccinated and you have substantially lowered your risk of contracting Covid.

The medical profession has also put out a warning not to engage in any risky Behavior right now because you may not be able to be treated and would be placing an unnecessary burden on the health care system.

Are you still hiking in the mountains and biking Pearl? If so, do you need me to tell you that you are making a poor decision because it's contrary to medical advice? If you wind up in the hospital because of a accident from those high-risk activities, you will be the one placing an increased burden on the medical system.

Personally, I'll take the risk and I'm guessing so will you along with most everyone else.

[PAL]

Yes, Chris, we are blessed with privilege, but life also involves choices people make as well. By many standards, we were born into privilege, but we made choices in our lives. And yes, not everyone has those opportunities to make choices, but alot do. These are choices to help their lot in life.
I sure don't assume all people share the same privilege as as you or I. I feel empathy for people that are impoverished and have to work extra hard. If you read Nomadland, then you know how badly Amazon treated their workers.
But this post is about standard crisis of care. But that may involve privilege, huh. It's whether the health care workers have to make choices of who should live, or who should die. So we can say it is the unvaccinated who have not had Covid that are driving the pandemic. A small minority then is affecting the pandemic.
With Biden's mandates the situation may improve.
Pearl

[Fun CH]

It's a minority of people not getting vaccinated? Or Is it a small minority?

it is estimated that 7%- 9% of the folks who do not desire a vaccine are what would be concidered true anti-vaxxers.

Anti-vaxxers are those folks that are actually against any vaccines and are vocal to the point that they want to tell other people what medical care they should be receiving (sound familiar? If not its simular to how the blame and shame folks are behaving imo).

That small minority of people have received so much press time that it has become stereotypical to assume that all people that have vaccine hesitancy or not able to get the vaccine are anti-vaxxers.

Maybe some are just working in the California garment sweatshops and don't have the time to get a vaccine because they have to work over time to make $200 a week so the more fortunate will be able to step out in style in expensive brand name clothing.

It's best not to assume that all people share the same privilege that you and I were blessed with.

[PAL]

It's a minority of people not getting vaccinated? Or Is it a small minority? I can count 10 people I know that haven't gotten vaccinated. It's easy to say they haven't gotten around to it. Just good ole human nature. 5 of the people believe the conspiracy theories.
Well, whatever, I guess.
I think it may be a lost cause. Have seen 2 football games(did not watch them in full, too many other outdoor things to do) and the vast majority of the crowd was unmasked. Don't know if they were vaccinated. Perhaps so, but it probably wasn't required.
Then there is the California governors race.
Getting away from the post, I know.

[Fun CH]

Heard a Doctor who treats icu covid cases on the news today. She asks why they choose not to be vaccinated and reports the majority say that it's because they just haven't gotten around to it yet due to time constraints.

So nothing nefarious, just human nature at work.

As you know, I'm not willing to play the blame and shame game with Ordinary People just trying to negotiate this pandemic the best they can.

And again unfortunately the news media likes to play up the drama that's created by a small minority of people who are against being vaccinated or using the pandemic for political or monetary gain.

Imo, It benefits those folks when they stir your anger and get you to play the us versus them game.

BTW, if you want to learn what the white supremacists are thinking about Covid, check out a forum called Stormfront.

[PAL]

Thanks Chris for helping to clarify. And it's really not my opinion. It is a fact about the unvaccinated driving the pandemic as you state in the correction.
And yes Biden's mandate and testing are a good thing, but it's causing an uproar. I agree with what he is doing.
Even Trump told his followers to get vaccinated and I heard some booing in the crowd when he said that.
The health care system realized they cannot save everyone with Covid. They are starting to evaluate who is worth saving and who is not.
I have been watching a wonderful video by Michael Dowd, called, "The Big Picture: Clarity, Compassion and Love in Action" You can Google it and it will come up. In one part he shows an 85 yr. old person hooked up to all kinds of gadgets in the hospital, all to extend his life another 6 months, in that condition. This is cruel. Our society is going to have to rethink some things as far as keeping people alive artificially. But it is really up to family members and the ill person, to realize when to pull the plug. Or the advice of the physicians. It should not be left up to the government.
In the case of the vaccine mandates, that is quite different. It really is to keep people out of the hospital and severe illness.
Pearl

[Fun CH]

IMO, again, the unvaccinated are still driving this pandemic.

your opinion is not entirely accurate.

Unvaccinated folks who have had Covid are at little risk of reinfection according to the CDC, quote: "Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare​.​"

So your statement should say that it is the unvaccinated who have not already had Covid who are currently driving pandemic.

Biden's new vaccine and testing mandates should help with that situation.

[PAL]

Here is a post from the other BB. And it's coming to a hospital near here.

"Idaho declares Crisis Standards in Care allowing some counties to ration health care as they struggle with burgeoning covid19 cases. It seems the worst is Kootenai County (Coeur d'Alene) just across the border from Spokane where they opened up a treatment center in a conference center. The state of Idaho warns other counties are teetering on the edge of health care rationing. One of the lowest vaccination rates in the nation. Kootenai Hospital staff is only 50% vax.

All this for a cold?"

Read more here:
https://www.opb.org/article/2021/09/08/ ... oss-idaho/ I don't know how to make it so that this link can be tapped on, so copy and paste.

Also, read Wed. Sept. 8th letters to the editor, one by John Olson,John Sims, and Katie Havens. I tried to copy it into this space but technical difficulties arose.
IMO, again, the unvaccinated are still driving this pandemic. I know this is polarizing, but this is the REALITY. Those that don't want the vaccine should then take all safety precautions not to spread this. The masks, distancing, hand washing. Do I trust the majority to do that? Not from what I have observed and the Stampede is just such an example for the huge rise in cases the last 2 wks.
Pearl