The wall of vaccine opposition might be starting to crumble

[mister_coffee]

And all I am saying is that we should treat people who refuse to wear a mask and get vaccinated for COVID approximately how we treat people who refuse to wear a mask or get treated for tuberculosis. Both are serious and dangerous diseases which are easily transmitted.

I don't think you can make a valid "both sides" argument here:

One side is making threats of violence against health care workers.

One side is physically assaulting people wearing masks.

One side is throwing spectacular temper tantrums in public when they do not get their way. I have witnessed two of these and one additional person who cursed and shouted and stormed out of the store.

Both sides are not symmetric and their differences are important if you wish to deal with the challenges we face constructively. If you get the other side to stop threatening health care workers I promise to be less extreme in my statements, and will in fact agree that vaccine mandates are okay but mandatory vaccinations are not (your words). I won't be holding my breath.

And the longer this goes on the more likely the only viable solutions that let people and society survive will be ones approximating my views. And I'd like this hell to end sooner rather than later.

[Fun CH]

There is no reasonable right to "bodily autonomy" when we are talking about a dangerous and easily communicable disease. Reasonable public health measures guided by the best science to protect society and all humans win out in that case.

the facts say otherwise. Taking the vaccine is voluntarily. Employers may require it as a condition of employment, Gov can impose certain restrictions on where you can travel and restrict services without a vacvine, and private businesses may require them as a condition for use, but they're still voluntary.

The government is not going to round people up and force a vaccine or incarcerate them for infecting someone.

Why are you spreading this misinformation?

The minority extreme positions on both sides of the aisle, in my opinion are part of pandemic problem and continued divisiveness.

Unfortunately because of the drama these extreme positions generate, they tend receive a disproportionate amount of air time.

[mister_coffee]

... so you the conclusion is that you willing to take the risk, however small, of infecting your neighboor during a period of high covid infection by not wearing your mask while drinking whiskey.

Glad we got that sorted.

No, I am following the best scientific advice that it is okay to gather in small groups indoors without masks if everyone is vaccinated.

If they were unvaccinated, or in a high-risk group, then of course I would be fully masked if I met with them indoors at all.

[Fun CH]

Any right to "bodily autonomy" also has to take into account the right of other humans to not be infected by pathogens you are carrying. If you choose not to get vaccinated you become part of the chain of infection and you own the deaths and injuries you cause others and should be held accountable. Knowingly exposing someone to a dangerous pathogen is a crime. Not taking reasonable measures to avoid exposing others to such a pathogen is arguably negligent.

To me it is a no-brainer to choose a vaccine that is free and is proven to be safe and effective over not choosing that vaccine because you think it might microchip you or thinking you can treat yourself with horse dewormer paste (or bleach, or toxic metals) if you get sick. Having a serious debate on that topic makes about as much sense as discussing phenomonology with your dog.

There is no reasonable right to "bodily autonomy" when we are talking about a dangerous and easily communicable disease. Reasonable public health measures guided by the best science to protect society and all humans win out in that case.

except that even folks who have been vaccinated can contract the disease and transmit that to others although both are less likely to occur according to the CDC.

That's one of the reasons why we (the vaccinated) wear masks in indoor public spaces.

The vaccine does however prevent the likelihood of serious disease.

So are you also going to hold folks who have been vaccinated and infect others some how accountable in your imaginary world when you want to round up the unvaccinated and "inject them with a dull needle" (your words)?

Btw, the news reported that 80% of the people in this country have some immunity to covid either by vaccination or by contracting the disease.

So I am fully vaccinated, and I visit my fully vaccinated neighbors for a shot of whiskey and some conversation. The odds of me inadvertently infecting them are on the order of 10 percent.

so you the conclusion is that you willing to take the risk, however small, of infecting your neighboor during a period of high covid infection by not wearing your mask while drinking whiskey.

Glad we got that sorted.

[mister_coffee]

Any right to "bodily autonomy" also has to take into account the right of other humans to not be infected by pathogens you are carrying. If you choose not to get vaccinated you become part of the chain of infection and you own the deaths and injuries you cause others and should be held accountable. Knowingly exposing someone to a dangerous pathogen is a crime. Not taking reasonable measures to avoid exposing others to such a pathogen is arguably negligent.

To me it is a no-brainer to choose a vaccine that is free and is proven to be safe and effective over not choosing that vaccine because you think it might microchip you or thinking you can treat yourself with horse dewormer paste (or bleach, or toxic metals) if you get sick. Having a serious debate on that topic makes about as much sense as discussing phenomonology with your dog.

There is no reasonable right to "bodily autonomy" when we are talking about a dangerous and easily communicable disease. Reasonable public health measures guided by the best science to protect society and all humans win out in that case.

except that even folks who have been vaccinated can contract the disease and transmit that to others although both are less likely to occur according to the CDC.

That's one of the reasons why we (the vaccinated) wear masks in indoor public spaces.

The vaccine does however prevent the likelihood of serious disease.

So are you also going to hold folks who have been vaccinated and infect others some how accountable in your imaginary world when you want to round up the unvaccinated and "inject them with a dull needle" (your words)?

Btw, the news reported that 80% of the people in this country have some immunity to covid either by vaccination or by contracting the disease.

No. If you take all reasonable measures to prevent yourself from transmitting a disease, based on the best science and the information and tools available to you, you shouldn't be held accountable for inadvertently infecting others. On the other hand, if you refuse to wear a mask because you don't want to be a "sheeple" or because of some distorted view of your "rights", or if you refuse to take a known safe and effective vaccine because you believe kooky conspiracy theories about Bill Gates and the vaccine causing reproductive problems then you made clear choices that went against the best science and information that was freely available to you and you need to own that decision.

Morally I consider not wearing a mask and not getting vaccinated as similarly reckless to driving while intoxicated. You can't make an argument against DWI laws that some people might cause accidents while not intoxicated.

There is no credible argument that just because mitigation measures (e.g. vaccines, masks, social distancing) are not 100 percent effective then it should be a free-for-all. Just as a 101-level thought experiment: let us assume that the vaccine reduces transmission by 90 percent (that seems reasonable based on what we know) and that masks reduce transmission by 50 percent.

So I am fully vaccinated, and I visit my fully vaccinated neighbors for a shot of whiskey and some conversation. The odds of me inadvertently infecting them are on the order of 10 percent.

Now if they go to dinner with their fully vaccinated kids, the odds of their kids getting infected from that particular chain of infection are approximately 1 percent.

Now if one of their kids works as a barista and she wears a mask at work, the odds of her inadvertently infecting a fully masked and vaccinated customer is about 0.025 percent.

Now if a lawyer who works for Perkins Coie gets a latte from her, and goes back to his office in Seattle, the odds of his infecting his fully vaccinated and masked coworkers is more like 0.000625 percent.

Note that in the Real World this effect isn't as dramatic because there are multiple infection and transmission sources, but the general principle still holds. The point is that even partially effective solutions are very efficient at breaking chains of transmission and that those solutions combine exponentially when you are considering a network of transmission in a community situation.

[Fun CH]

That's fine and they are still % my thoughts and my ideas and not spoon-fed to me from a facebook feed or some kook on youtube.

That statement seems to be a tad disingenuous. You have posted several blog posts that parrot what you are saying. I've even commented that they seem to fire you up as they confirm your bias.

[Fun CH]

Any right to "bodily autonomy" also has to take into account the right of other humans to not be infected by pathogens you are carrying. If you choose not to get vaccinated you become part of the chain of infection and you own the deaths and injuries you cause others and should be held accountable. Knowingly exposing someone to a dangerous pathogen is a crime. Not taking reasonable measures to avoid exposing others to such a pathogen is arguably negligent.

To me it is a no-brainer to choose a vaccine that is free and is proven to be safe and effective over not choosing that vaccine because you think it might microchip you or thinking you can treat yourself with horse dewormer paste (or bleach, or toxic metals) if you get sick. Having a serious debate on that topic makes about as much sense as discussing phenomonology with your dog.

There is no reasonable right to "bodily autonomy" when we are talking about a dangerous and easily communicable disease. Reasonable public health measures guided by the best science to protect society and all humans win out in that case.

except that even folks who have been vaccinated can contract the disease and transmit that to others although both are less likely to occur according to the CDC.

That's one of the reasons why we (the vaccinated) wear masks in indoor public spaces.

The vaccine does however prevent the likelihood of serious disease.

So are you also going to hold folks who have been vaccinated and infect others some how accountable in your imaginary world when you want to round up the unvaccinated and "inject them with a dull needle" (your words)?

Btw, the news reported that 80% of the people in this country have some immunity to covid either by vaccination or by contracting the disease.

[mister_coffee]

Sir, with respect, I was not addressing you or making any claims about your beliefs.

Many people may disagree with what I think. Many others may agree with it. That's fine and they are still % my thoughts and my ideas and not spoon-fed to me from a facebook feed or some kook on youtube. In the marketplace of ideas one needs to grow a thick skin if one is to compete.

If you don't like what I say you are free to tell me why I am wrong.

[dorankj]

David Bonn, I’ve never stated any of the ‘conspiracy theories’ you so rudely and crudely try to foist on me! You know virtually nothing about me, my medical history and my experience on the front lines of this whole pandemic. If you wish to actually have a discussion that may lead to greater understanding of people who may think different than you, a little tolerance might help. Really, I’ve seen so many crazy posts from you on a couple boards, I don’t think you’re worth my effort honestly. Have a good day.

[mister_coffee]

Any right to "bodily autonomy" also has to take into account the right of other humans to not be infected by pathogens you are carrying. If you choose not to get vaccinated you become part of the chain of infection and you own the deaths and injuries you cause others and should be held accountable. Knowingly exposing someone to a dangerous pathogen is a crime. Not taking reasonable measures to avoid exposing others to such a pathogen is arguably negligent.

To me it is a no-brainer to choose a vaccine that is free and is proven to be safe and effective over not choosing that vaccine because you think it might microchip you or thinking you can treat yourself with horse dewormer paste (or bleach, or toxic metals) if you get sick. Having a serious debate on that topic makes about as much sense as discussing phenomonology with your dog.

There is no reasonable right to "bodily autonomy" when we are talking about a dangerous and easily communicable disease. Reasonable public health measures guided by the best science to protect society and all humans win out in that case.

[dorankj]

Here, here! FunCH, I have been responding this entire time both here and on the west side (right next to where the first cases were identified) going into the unknown, following crazy rules and mandates (many of which have no medical or scientific substance!) being called a brave hero on the front-lines and now a reprehensible kook with supposedly no understanding of healthcare or medical science! This whole time, my near 30 years experience in every nature of emergency health care hasn’t changed. This whole crazy thing has become partisan witch hunts and now my very livelihood that I’ve worked for over 30 years is in jeopardy because personal autonomy and freedom is no longer allowed (by self described ‘liberals’) unless you hold the right political position (like getting a abortion!).

[Fun CH]

Well, Chris might have been right and it might well be that my unkind words to anti-vaxx kooks is going to cost me my life. And if you don't think it can happen here, remember that there were death threats against our county public health folks last year. Death threats that were ignored and downplayed by the sheriff and county council. So I doubt anyone in authority is going to do anything about this insanity.

Don't worry so much you're not that important and have zero influence Public Health policy.

If I was in my early 20s, back in the day when I could actually lift a house worth of lumber, I may have chosen a path of natural immunity.

I got vaccinated because our immune systems don't work as well when we're old.

I guess in your eyes that would have made me a kook, a fool, an idiot and worthy of being rounded up and "injected with a dull needle".

But keep in mind that what someone chooses to do with respect to their personal medical care is their own damn business, not yours and not mine. What we choose do with our own bodies is one of our inalienable rights.

Why can't you respect that POV?

With that said, I'm going to try one more time.

Were the folks who placed themselves at risk of harm to save your house and this valley from certain destruction from fire also kooks? Because undoubtedly many of those folks did not get the vaccine.

Wouldn't a better word choice be hero?

[mister_coffee]

On the other hand, you have continuing reports like this one:

https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/ ... 160309002/

My understanding is that story is really a tip of the iceberg and that threats against people administering the vaccine, and in some cases those who have taken the vaccine, are increasing and are now not uncommon. At some point some kook is going to cross the line and seriously injure somebody. Well, actually I spoke too late because that already happened:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/1 ... on-protest

Well, Chris might have been right and it might well be that my unkind words to anti-vaxx kooks is going to cost me my life. And if you don't think it can happen here, remember that there were death threats against our county public health folks last year. Death threats that were ignored and downplayed by the sheriff and county council. So I doubt anyone in authority is going to do anything about this insanity.

[Fun CH]

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/ ... irus-index

Augest 31,2021

"The latest Axios-Ipsos Coronavirus Index finds fewer Americans stand in hard opposition to getting the vaccine at any point since its release. This shift, coming amid the Delta variant surge and after the FDA formally approved the Pfizer vaccine, is particularly noteworthy among parents who have been mixed on getting their children vaccinated. With more than 45 million children under 12 -- who are not yet eligible for the vaccine – this change suggests that once the vaccine is approved for younger kids, there may be a significant surge in the vaccination rate"

"Rates of out of home activity are largely unchanged from the last week with just over half (56%) of Americans reporting going out to eat or visit friends or relatives (56%).
However, the number who report social distancing has climbed slightly with half of Americans (50%) reporting that they are now staying home and avoiding others as much as possible.
Likewise, mask use continues to increase. Now two-thirds (69%) of Americans report using a mask some or all the time.
4. American support of more vigorous anti-COVID policies continues to be strong, even as more Americans are experiencing them."