"The unvaccinated are applying a lot of pressure to our hospital," said Dr. George Diaz

[Fun CH]

Unfortunatly Reviving This Thread has also revived a lot of misinformation concerning the vaccine and coronavirus in general.

Best to seek advice from your personal physician rather than rely on any information posted on the internet from non-professional and non-expert medical sources.

If your medical information is coming from any politician, double your efforts to seek expert opinions.

[Mark58]

The Wall Street Journal.

Coronavirus Briefing: Biden Administration Likely to Approve Booster Shots at Six Months

Good morning. Federal regulators are likely to approve a Covid-19 booster shot for vaccinated adults starting at least six months after the previous dose rather than the eight-month gap they originally announced, a person familiar with the plans said, as the Biden administration steps up preparations for delivering boosters to the public.

That would be more logical than 8 months, which appears to be a number pulled out of thin air. There's clearly a sense that Covid is escaping our containment efforts.

Second David's thanks for restoring this thread.

Mark Miller

[mister_coffee]

Thanks to Ray for copying this censored thread here.

[pasayten]

The Wall Street Journal.

Coronavirus Briefing: Biden Administration Likely to Approve Booster Shots at Six Months

Good morning. Federal regulators are likely to approve a Covid-19 booster shot for vaccinated adults starting at least six months after the previous dose rather than the eight-month gap they originally announced, a person familiar with the plans said, as the Biden administration steps up preparations for delivering boosters to the public.

[pasayten]

by Reapward » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:37 am

David, great! But you are much too rational and reasonable in all this.
You've stated this so well and the information sources people can look up. But they would prefer to stay on the dark side of all of this.
The pandemic situation is new to a lot of our generation and those that follow. My parents came through the 2018 flu pandemic. Things were different then. They lived on farms and were isolated anyway. That probably saved them.
So now we still have to be vigilant. I still think that if most people would have gotten vaccinated, we would not be in the situation of full hospitals. The Delta variant wants us, and those that don't follow the mandates, guidelines, will continue to spread it. It's out of control already and now won't be controlled. It might be controlled in this Valley, as long as people do the right thing, here. Do the right thing. Maybe people think, oh I might get it and it won't be that bad. It's a gamble. Do they want the long term side affects of the virus?
And thanks Mark, for your explanations that I was trying to say.
Pearl Cherrington

[pasayten]

by Mark58 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:33 am

I find Susan's posts, while not clearly misinformation, misinterpretation leading to misinformed conclusions. For example, she is harping on FDA drug withdrawals. Actually those show our system is working. The majority of withdrawals are due to discovery of manufacturing problems including mislabeling, contamination with unrelated agents, interactions with other drugs, and numerous other things. Most are not due to side effects. That said, phase III trials required before release of a drug, involve thousands of people. When released millions, not thousands, of people are then involved and there are always a few very rare things that are then discovered. Sometimes that merits withdrawal or a black box warning. But the fact that the FDA withdraws drugs in no way means that initial release was an error. Risk/benefit ratios are ALWAYS the bottom line. And in the case of the mRNA vaccines the number of people exposed and the tiny tiny adverse reactions means that the benefits far outweigh the risks. Attempting to paint it otherwise misleads people and harms us all. And, BTW, do not use VAERS as a measure of adverse reactions. They are unverified reports, sort of like everyone thinking they have food poisoning when they get a stomach flu.

Mark Miller

[pasayten]

by mr_coffee » Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:09 am

To amplify on what Pearl so clearly stated, and to quote Carl Sagan, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

So far I've heard a lot of extraordinary claims here and zero evidence to back them up.

Within the policy limits this board has put in place, I've done my best to pass along my sources, which for the most part have been peer-reviewed scientific papers or credible publications which are quoting peer-reviewed scientific papers.

I am also making a good-faith effort to keep what I know and can back up (e.g. with those peer-reviewed scientific papers) and what I think separate.

Speaking of what I think:

The past eighteen months have been terribly frustrating for both myself and probably most humans. We are all living through something that very few of us have experienced before, and to be honest many of us have not handled the challenges we face very well at all, and the vast majority of us haven't exactly covered ourselves in glory.

One of the big advantages we have as American humans in 2021 is that we have these magic little boxes where we can ask them questions and get good answers. If we construct the questions carefully and also put some effort into interpreting the answers we can get ***really good*** answers. We as a society have access to better and more complete information and more topics than any other society in history.

More specifically, during this pandemic nearly all medical research papers relevant to the pandemic are open-sourced, and many are available before publication and peer review is complete. Yet so very few of us avail ourselves to that incredible resource, and at the same time there are many who have decided they know more than doctors and scientists who have studied coronaviruses for decades.

Many people seem to prefer to wallow in ignorance, or are led astray by the many quacks and charlatans and conspiracy theorists that have popped up. To me at least it is depressingly obvious, though not so obvious to the victims of those frauds.

The best analogy is that I see we have this vast cornucopia of delicious and healthy foods and many people are choosing to subsist on cheetos and floor sweepings. It is a tragedy.
David Bonn

[pasayten]

by Reapward » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:44 am

"Each viewpoint relayed can be supported."
Anything can, especially if people make stuff up to fit their view.
Information, is informative, and misinformation and conspiracies theories are alternative views, but many are not medically or science based.
Pearl Cherrington

[pasayten]

by Susan » Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:04 pm

C'mon David. Stop twisting things and playing moral high ground, like you care and I and/or others with various opinions do not care about others.
I objected to your cancel culture dig that my viewpoints were "misinformation". Each viewpoint relayed can be supported. There are claims that you posted that can be picked apart and thus one could choose to derogatively label "misinformation" (as there is quite a bit of conflicting Covid data currently) but I am not into that.

I participated in this thread in hopes of providing some alternative viewpoints to facilitate peace and understanding where the media and other's are fueling extreme division and hatred, now between vax & unvax. As well as inspire some open-mindness and open dialog. Shame, it appears that is not possible.

Like the Weapons of Mass Destruction or the revered FDA annually recalling large quantities of drugs each year they previously researched and approved...Sometimes what we adamantly are told or believe to be true turns out not to be the truth down the road [FACT]. That is not to say not to get vaccinated or to wear a mask or not to wear a mask etc. It's a PLEA TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND to other possibilities and viewpoints and stop the culture of hate we're in.

The scientific method, and dare I say critical thinking, is not about everyone agreeing. What a different world we'd all be living in if those who didn't believe the world was flat were socially condemned, viewpoints censored and labeled 'misinformation' and all freedom to explore non-group thinking was prohibited. Thankfully, history is full of those who broke through such limits.

[pasayten]

by Reapward » Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:01 pm

Covid stats, Aug. 23rd. 10 new cases in Omak. None for the Valley yet.
Fact on news, 29% of those not vaccinated more likely to end up in the hospital.
Florida Dr. and nurses staged a walk out. They are exhausted with no end in sight with that state.
Laurie Jones, with county health and Maurice Goodall with Emergency Management making pleas to the county commissioners to help with this new mandate. Not much interest.
The vaccinated have been very patient.
realrisks.org is full of misinformation. Take a horse worming pill anyone? I dare ya.

Mark 58, give it time, a short time, this post will come down soon. Despite all the good really good factual info delivered and science based, it will go away. Ooooh science, bad, bad.
Pearl Cherrington

[pasayten]

Post by mr_coffee » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:41 pm

I'm sorry you are interpreting my posts that way. No attacks are intended, I just do not think it is a good idea to let misinformation, especially misinformation that can cause people to make a terrible mistake with respect to their health and their very lives, to go by unchallenged.

Help me out and clarify what is worse, morally:

Saying mean or divisive things to people and hurting their feelings.

Saying things that might cause people to make a catastrophically bad decision about their health and cause loss of life or severe injury.

Maybe you are different, but I know where I think the real harm is being done.

Not all information is created equal. Not all opinions are equally valid. You can be nice and tolerant to people as long as nobody is harming anybody else -- basically it is all fun and games until somebody is in the ICU struggling to breathe.

I guess you are saying I am somehow wrong for vehemently objecting to seeing people suffer or die unnecessarily.
David Bonn

[pasayten]

by Susan » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:42 pm

Wow!

David. You have already attacked one person as "wrong" for posting a quote. I have not submitted any "mis-information". I am not going to get into a lengthy "Executive Summary" combative battle with you. Nor, did I ever discuss anything regarding pregnancy/childbirth etc.

Best of Luck All.

[pasayten]

by Reapward » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:08 pm

Try going to the other side of the county if you want to see no masks. Nothing on doors that would ever indicate a mandate. And guess where cases are rising the county? Different story when I arrived back to the Valley. Everyone I saw today, wearing a mask.
Even the clinics are not screening much and the waiting rooms are jammed. Masks are still required by the clinics however.
Back to hospital overload. Central Wa. cannot accept heart attack patients, but they can accept the Covid patients. Didn't, doesn't have to be this way. If you don't vaccinate, mask please, distance and don't attend large groups. Don't depend on the vaccinated to keep you safe. The unmasked and unvaccinated didn't care about keeping the vaccinated safe and look where we are today. I had a healthcare provider today tell me we are probably headed for another lockdown, by looking at the stats.
This is the last thing we want.
Pearl Cherrington

[pasayten]

by mr_coffee » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:26 pm

Susan,

With all due respect, some of the assertions you are making are painting either an incomplete picture or are simply incorrect.

Many vaccines do not prevent infection but do prevent severe disease. A common example is the rotavirus vaccine often given to infants.

About Israel. While yes, Israel has a very high level of fully vaccinated people (around 60.6 percent of the population according to the Google), here in Washington 59.6 percent of the population is fully vaccinated. So there isn't like there is a humungous range there. And yes, while it appears that the current set of vaccines aren't very good at stopping infection, if nearly the whole population was vaccinated very few people would be at serious risk and we could all get on with our lives.

So, as an executive summary:

(1) Serious side effects from mRNA vaccines are vanishingly rare. So rare, in fact, that we have a hard time being specific about the risk. Compared to the health risks you run getting infected with COVID-19 the risks of an mRNA vaccine is zero.

(2) There are no known long-term side effects associated with mRNA vaccines, in spite of human trials going back several years There has been no confirmed and peer-reviewed case of side effects in **any** vaccine appearing more than a few months after vaccination. On the other hand, we are learning quite a bit about serious long-term health risks associated with COVID-19 infections. And what we are learning is not good.

(3) There is no evidence for any risk of miscarriage or birth defects from mRNA vaccines. All informations points to such claims being malicious disinformation. On the other side, we know that an unvaccinated pregnant woman is running terrifying risks with her life and health as well as the life and health of her child.

I too find the situation heartbreaking. In a wealthy, educated society with free access to excellent information, so many people are passing around disinformation which not only harms themselves but can often endanger others. Even people who inadvertently pass around disinformation that harms others need to own their mistake and ask for forgiveness. Otherwise you are just letting bad actors harm others and get away with it.
David Bonn

[pasayten]

by SonoraJane » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:25 pm

FYI, if anyone cares, the Chevron in Twisp is blatantly not following the mask mandate, guy at counter no mask, lady in sub shop wearing it on her chin. 4-5 bikers in there no mask. Lady walking in with child obviously less then 12, maybe 9 or 10, with no masks? EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THERE EXCEPT ME NO MASK. I left without buying what I went in for. I plan on never doing business there again if I can help it. Ad it is I have driven past them and gone to Hank's Mini until today.

I guess they all don't care about anyone but themselves.
Susan Finn
Twisp WA
Stay Safe, Social Distance
WEAR A MASK

[pasayten]

by Susan » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:15 am

G'day! For clarity, my posts are not 'anti-vax'. They are anti-division and freedom of having open-mindness and open dialog regarding various thoughts on a 'new' medicine injection that sadly does not truly vaccinate by definition (as wouldn't that be wonderful!). Vax definition:

"A substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies 'and' [provide immunity] against one or several diseases"

I have not seen Covid vaccine evidence of 'immunity' for getting Covid - like how other vaccines "prevents' the person from getting a disease vs. just having a mild case?

I see a lot of heart-breaking incitement that seems to be fueling division and hate towards people who have yet to decide if they feel comfortable administrating a new med into 'their' bodies. So, I was relaying a few points why that may be in hopes of fueling peace and understanding.

Also, currently, the U.S. is not as vaccinated as Israel. Thus mathematically, it makes sense the percentages in U.S. hospitals would be more unvaccinated folks.

If everyone were forced to be injected in the community would Covid finally be over and would that stop everyone from having the risk of catching Covid? Based on the new findings from Israel, with a new surge despite mass vaccination, it sadly appears that the injections are not stopping transmission of Covid. And that they are needing to require boosters.

Like Pearl says, Covid Injections are likely to help an individual have a milder case and lessen mortality. I think it will also be wonderful to have early treatment options available to help folks in the near future too. Will also be interesting as time progresses and we have a lot more natural immunity from populations already having Covid. Thankfully, majority of all of my friends & family, except sadly one, has recovered fine. For me, I chose not to gather.

I agree. Do what you and your doctor think best. Love & Health to all.

[pasayten]

by cj » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:01 am

PLEASE GO TO realrisks.org

[pasayten]

by Mark58 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:52 am

SonoraJane wrote:
> Fact sheet: 350 million doses of vaccines have been given from Dec '20 to
> August 16, 2021. Of that 6,789 deaths have been reported which is .0019%.
>
> I like those odds much better than the unvaccinated odds.

I think that's less than the standard death rate in the population, meaning the vaccine is keeping people alive even if they don't get Covid. Fancy that.

[pasayten]

by Mark58 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:48 am

Mobarika wrote:
> Getting the vaccine is a hard Decision to make for some. A lot of people
> are dying from it. A lot of people are experiencing adverse effects with
> major changes in the body. Heart problems, high blood pressure, birth
> defects and low birth rate... etc. People are still getting covid after
> taking the shot and dying from the covid anyways even after taking the
> shot. What are they supposed to think. What are we all supposed to think
> from all this. This calling people anti vaxer crap has to stop. People are
> scared to take it, people are dying from the shot, people are dying from
> covid. You all need to take your covid bashing else where besides this
> place. Talking about it to get information, ya sure, putting others down
> for what they are going through? No. If you had to jump off of a cliff with
> some sort of parachute to save your life would you? Even if the
> instructions says it might save your life? I do my part with all this and
> if I see someone else not doing theirs, I let God take care of them.

If this were a moderated forum the above would be removed for spreading misinformation. None of the statements are accurate or supportable with data.

Mark Miller

[pasayten]

by eastforkdork » Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am

Wrong? About what... I didn't make any claims or statements, just posted a quote from an article.
I hate getting caught up in these arguments because some people like you apparently live for this kind of thing. I don't. But just to be clear, the point was to address people who have already had the virus and whether or not they're natural immunity is more effective at stopping reinfection. It was not to argue that it is better to just become infected with covid and get natural immunity rather than get vaccinated. People who have not had the virus and are at higher risk for any reason should probably get the shot. I'm not a doctor but don't need to be to make that conclusion. People who are healthy and know that they have had a covid infection either from positive tests or antibodies detected in blood tests, should not be forced to get the vaccine. That is my position and until the data changes, I'll stand by it.

Watch the video on the other thread...it's very encouraging.
Pat Hale

[pasayten]

by mr_coffee » Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:10 am

You're still wrong, Pat.

I quote:

The spread of the Delta variant has caused new COVID-19 surges in many countries, including Israel. Data from Israel indicates that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine has a lower effectiveness (64%) against infection and symptomatic illness with this variant, but the vaccine remains highly effective at preventing 93% of serious illnesses. Hence, Israel is now seeing fewer COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations, and deaths compared to previous waves. This shows that COVID-19 vaccines are a safer way of acquiring immunity than infection and effectively protect people from illness and death.

You can search for:

COVID-19 vaccines are a much safer way of acquiring immunity than infection, which requires exposing the person to risks from the disease healthfeedback.org

To find the original source material and for more reasons why your statistics are misleading and lack key context.
David Bonn

[pasayten]

by eastforkdork » Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:55 am

“Health Ministry data on the wave of COVID outbreaks which began this May show that Israelis with immunity from natural infection were far less likely to become infected again in comparison to Israelis who only had immunity via vaccination,” Israel National News reported. “More than 7,700 new cases of the virus have been detected during the most recent wave starting in May, but just 72 of the confirmed cases were reported in people who were known to have been infected previously – that is, less than 1% of the new cases. Roughly 40% of new cases – or more than 3,000 patients – involved people who had been infected despite being vaccinated.”

This logic believable Gary?
Pat Hale

[pasayten]

by mr_coffee » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:52 am

Also, when risks of miscarriage from the vaccines are brought up, you ought to be aware of the risks on the other side of the equation:

Pregnant women with COVID-19 are 15 times more likely to die, 14 times more likely to need to be intubated, and 22 times more likely to have preterm birth than those who are uninfected, according to a study published this month in JAMA Network Open.
David Bonn

[pasayten]

by bobcat » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:11 am

Not any of the anti-vax logics posted on this thread is believable.
Gary Ott

[pasayten]

by Reapward » Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:37 am

Thanks David. Excellent. And good questions, all.
Susan, don't get me wrong, I am not cocky about the vaccine totally protecting me.
But others can be reassured that this vaccine will not kill them.
People are afraid they will lose their freedom to choose, whether to take the vaccine or not. But this is a pandemic we have not experienced before.
Read about Arkansas. Lowest vax rate and highest Covid rate. The most common reason people gave was their freedom of choice being taken away.
Pearl Cherrington