Fire Information Discussion split off from Blue Lake Fire

[PAL]

Yup. Sometimes they don't.

[Fun CH]

Someone sent me a text today that said that they read on Facebook that the fire that is now in Whistler Basin was the result of a intentional burnout, to contain the Blue lake fire,
that obviously didn't go as planned.

[Fun CH]

Again, FB groups. You obviously aren't aware and choose not to be that all the First Responders in the County and State have FB pages, as do all the meteorology organizations, like the Nat'l Weather Service, all the Incident Commands have pages, WSDOT is on and too many more to list. They post updates by the day and sometimes by the hour. Some aggregate the various posts but it doesn't take long to get a good picture because they get fed to your own page. Everyone has issues with FB but when it comes to retrieving emergency information they're a reliable resource.

would you join Trump's 'truth social' if that was the only source of that same information on social media sites?

The WSDOT sends information right to my email. I can pick which regions I want information from right down to a specific Highway and their website is easy to navigate.

Do Government fire agencies do the same thing?

I expect more from Government services, how about you?

[PAL]

I saw that too yesterday and tried to find it again. I used Caltopo. There is one called Kinky? Is there a Kinky Cr. up there. I thought I saw a yellow star.
Guess we'll know eventually.

[just-jim]

While it would be nice to have ‘everything’ in one place, David….. as I pointed out before, there are so many agencies involved in the process, Im not sure it can happen. Ultimately, it’s about human capacity to update websites continuously for multiple incidents. Maybe Inciweb could be put to better use. I watched it get set up, so it’s now more than 20 years old. Yes, probably time to launch something better.

Chris seems to think a fire like Blue Lake is :”important”. It isn’t; no people are threatened, nor are structures, private property or infrastructure. Yeah…..Hwy20 is closed, an inconvenience at best.

Thankfully, there IS a system of alerts, run by the County when people and property are threatened. It seems to work pretty well.

[mister_coffee]

I'd agree that our current ways of getting fire information are haphazard and confusing at best, and in my opinion in the worst case will inevitably cause a horrifying tragedy down the road. If you are savvy and up-to-date on where the Cool Kids are keeping the information and have a pretty efficient information filter you can, most of the time, figure it out. On the other hand, if I am confronted with semi-busted Internet, a confusing and rapidly developing situation, and trying to figure out if I should run for my life or stand and try to save my home, I won't have the time to sort all of this out.

Yes, the confusing (to an outsider) array of agencies that are involved in wildfire response don't make solving this problem easy. But if it were an easy problem to solve it wouldn't be a problem because it would have been solved years ago.

A kind of analog to this would be information about tornados (and yes, I think we should think of wildfires as an extreme weather event). The information really comes down from one source and is passed on through second parties, but you can always go to the National Weather Service or NOAA and get the straight story.

If you hired me to solve this problem I'd change the IC process so that daily reports on wildfire perimeter and evacuation zones would be pushed to some central repository. In rapidly developing situations that information, such as it is, would be pushed hourly if possible. Both current information and historical data would be available online. Data would be available in human-comprehensible form and in machine-readable forms that third parties can use (I note that NOAA currently does this poorly). ARCGIS would be okay. KML or GeoJSON would be better. All three would be even better and there isn't any huge technical barrier to doing that. Geolocated third-party reports could be fed into the same system, and anyone who was interested could read the "take" from those reports and make use of them as they wish. Or not.

[Fun CH]

Sigh……

Fires are almost ALWAYS named for a close geographic feature, sometimes not even especially close by - hence ‘Blue Lake’.

There is a large and varied number of sites that have fire information. Why? Because there are multiple agencies, across multiple parts of government…at Federal, state and local levels doing work mapping, forecasting weather, doing prevention, control and management etc etc. They all have different missions and computer platforms and ways and channels of informing the public.

Too stubborn to avail yourself of these sources? NO one is going to curate a ‘CH Channel’ for your personal rumination.

There IS a way to consolidate this information….Inciweb is one, but it has its own limits in that it has to be continually updated by a human. And it is normally only used in larger (>100+ ac fires).
The other way is social media…one that agencies have embraced. And as much as I dislike social media…it is probably getting the most info to the most people.

44 years in fire…the last 15 or so in fire Information.
.

Jim, I don't need your personal attacks. Take it somewhere else.

We all know why these extreme fires are happening in our over grown forests. Failed FS policy.

Accurate communication is key. Social media has a high signal to noise ratio. Just look at this thread full of personal attacks as an example.

And yes I expect better communication from Gov officials such as why it takes so long to bring a Gov website, inciweb, up to date. I guess they are to busy seeking "likes" on Facebook?

I stated my reasons why I'm not a member. I don't care that others use it, but the Facebook fanboy stuff is getting old.

Not an attack at all….a comment on your unwillingness to use available sources.

Inciweb just doesnt work like you think it should. It wasnt set up to do that. It is for MAJOR fires. Until today, Blue Lake fire wasnt on Inciweb.

Here is today (Friday’s) National Situation Report - https://www.nifc.gov/nicc-files/sitreprt.pdf
See how Blue Lake rates only one line in the report…and has no discussion in the narrative.
in the larger scheme of things - 40+ large fires and 200+ new fires – it IS small potatoes.

“We all know why….,” What does forest management or fire policy have to do with how YOU get information?

Not sure why you bring up - but since you do; go ahead and list the agencies or organization or Companies that HAVE figured out how to ‘fire-proof’ the forests they manage? WADNR? BLM? BIA? NPS? ODF? Idaho dept of Lands? Montana? BC Forest Service? Weyerhaeuser? Potlatch?

Or, maybe you could use your vast experience in Forestry and fire management and list some of the actions that WOULD help cure fire, insect, climate change, and other threats that plague several hundred million acres of forested lands in North America?

I’ll wait……
.

when you call me stubborn and combine that with all the insults and derogatory names you have called me on other threads I would say that constitutes a personal attack. This is also an attack.. Quote
"maybe you could use your vast experience in Forestry and fire management."

And. I'm not talking about fireproofing the forest Jim , I think you know that.

I'm talking about FS policy of years of fire suppression that has lead to a tanglefuck of fuels buildup that has increased the intensity of our fires. Add that to current policy of "yea, you can have a campfire" past the point of extreme fire conditions then I'd say that constitutes poor FS policy.

And most of us know how fires are named. I'm just pointing out that fire wasn't in Blue Lake when it started.

Calling it the Blue Lake fire can lead people to speculate that the fire was human caused and create other confusion. I had one person tell that the Wa Pass overlook was on fire. Heck, that's near Blue Lake.

Yes, I know inciweb is not reporting on important fires because they are to small for them to bother. That's what I'm critical of and hoping they change their policy when public safety is at risk no matter the size. Why should the public have to navigate multiple different websites in order to get accurate fire information?

To help you understand my adversion to facebook, would you join Trumps Truth Social site to see fire information posted by fire professionals on the scene? Why shouldn't the public be able to look at one Gov run site to obtain emergency information?

[just-jim]

how do you get "stay in the dark"? The Blue Lake fire was reported by me, HERE. I asked for conformation because the report I got was from a friend who found it on a Gov fire map and knew the exact location, above the "secret trail", Not Blue Lake.

If Gov fire personal can report on face book, they can certainly report on an official add free Gov website.

Pic from icinweb of fire near Blue Lake. I've ski climbed in that area too many times to count and know it well.

Its not Blue Lake.

Blue Lake Fire_MVRD_OkaWenNF_2023-08-16 from airplane2.jpg.jpeg

Sigh……

Fires are almost ALWAYS named for a close geographic feature, sometimes not even especially close by - hence ‘Blue Lake’.

There is a large and varied number of sites that have fire information. Why? Because there are multiple agencies, across multiple parts of government…at Federal, state and local levels doing work mapping, forecasting weather, doing prevention, control and management etc etc. They all have different missions and computer platforms and ways and channels of informing the public.

Too stubborn to avail yourself of these sources? NO one is going to curate a ‘CH Channel’ for your personal rumination.

There IS a way to consolidate this information….Inciweb is one, but it has its own limits in that it has to be continually updated by a human. And it is normally only used in larger (>100+ ac fires).
The other way is social media…one that agencies have embraced. And as much as I dislike social media…it is probably getting the most info to the most people.

44 years in fire…the last 15 or so in fire Information.
.

Jim, I don't need your personal attacks. Take it somewhere else.

We all know why these extreme fires are happening in our over grown forests. Failed FS policy.

Accurate communication is key. Social media has a high signal to noise ratio. Just look at this thread full of personal attacks as an example.

And yes I expect better communication from Gov officials such as why it takes so long to bring a Gov website, inciweb, up to date. I guess they are to busy seeking "likes" on Facebook?

I stated my reasons why I'm not a member. I don't care that others use it, but the Facebook fanboy stuff is getting old.

Not an attack at all….a comment on your unwillingness to use available sources.

Inciweb just doesnt work like you think it should. It wasnt set up to do that. It is for MAJOR fires. Until today, Blue Lake fire wasnt on Inciweb.

Here is today (Friday’s) National Situation Report - https://www.nifc.gov/nicc-files/sitreprt.pdf
See how Blue Lake rates only one line in the report…and has no discussion in the narrative.
in the larger scheme of things - 40+ large fires and 200+ new fires – it IS small potatoes.

“We all know why….,” What does forest management or fire policy have to do with how YOU get information?

Not sure why you bring up - but since you do; go ahead and list the agencies or organization or Companies that HAVE figured out how to ‘fire-proof’ the forests they manage? WADNR? BLM? BIA? NPS? ODF? Idaho dept of Lands? Montana? BC Forest Service? Weyerhaeuser? Potlatch?

Or, maybe you could use your vast experience in Forestry and fire management and list some of the actions that WOULD help cure fire, insect, climate change, and other threats that plague several hundred million acres of forested lands in North America?

I’ll wait……
.

[Fun CH]

Peace out.

[Fun CH]

how do you get "stay in the dark"? The Blue Lake fire was reported by me, HERE. I asked for conformation because the report I got was from a friend who found it on a Gov fire map and knew the exact location, above the "secret trail", Not Blue Lake.

If Gov fire personal can report on face book, they can certainly report on an official add free Gov website.

Pic from icinweb of fire near Blue Lake. I've ski climbed in that area too many times to count and know it well.

Its not Blue Lake.

Blue Lake Fire_MVRD_OkaWenNF_2023-08-16 from airplane2.jpg.jpeg

Sigh……

Fires are almost ALWAYS named for a close geographic feature, sometimes not even especially close by - hence ‘Blue Lake’.

There is a large and varied number of sites that have fire information. Why? Because there are multiple agencies, across multiple parts of government…at Federal, state and local levels doing work mapping, forecasting weather, doing prevention, control and management etc etc. They all have different missions and computer platforms and ways and channels of informing the public.

Too stubborn to avail yourself of these sources? NO one is going to curate a ‘CH Channel’ for your personal rumination.

There IS a way to consolidate this information….Inciweb is one, but it has its own limits in that it has to be continually updated by a human. And it is normally only used in larger (>100+ ac fires).
The other way is social media…one that agencies have embraced. And as much as I dislike social media…it is probably getting the most info to the most people.

44 years in fire…the last 15 or so in fire Information.
.

Jim, I don't need your personal attacks. Take it somewhere else.

We all know why these extreme fires are happening in our over grown forests. Failed FS policy.

Accurate communication is key. Social media has a high signal to noise ratio. Just look at this thread full of personal attacks as an example.

And yes I expect better communication from Gov officials such as why it takes so long to bring a Gov website, inciweb, up to date. I guess they are to busy seeking "likes" on Facebook?

I stated my reasons why I'm not a member. I don't care that others use it, but the Facebook fanboy stuff is getting old.

[just-jim]

how do you get "stay in the dark"? The Blue Lake fire was reported by me, HERE. I asked for conformation because the report I got was from a friend who found it on a Gov fire map and knew the exact location, above the "secret trail", Not Blue Lake.

If Gov fire personal can report on face book, they can certainly report on an official add free Gov website.

Pic from icinweb of fire near Blue Lake. I've ski climbed in that area too many times to count and know it well.

Its not Blue Lake.

Blue Lake Fire_MVRD_OkaWenNF_2023-08-16 from airplane2.jpg.jpeg

Sigh……

Fires are almost ALWAYS named for a close geographic feature, sometimes not even especially close by - hence ‘Blue Lake’.

There is a large and varied number of sites that have fire information. Why? Because there are multiple agencies, across multiple parts of government…at Federal, state and local levels doing work mapping, forecasting weather, doing prevention, control and management etc etc. They all have different missions and computer platforms and ways and channels of informing the public.

Too stubborn to avail yourself of these sources? NO one is going to curate a ‘CH Channel’ for your personal rumination.

There IS a way to consolidate this information….Inciweb is one, but it has its own limits in that it has to be continually updated by a human. And it is normally only used in larger (>100+ ac fires).
The other way is social media…one that agencies have embraced. And as much as I dislike social media…it is probably getting the most info to the most people.

44 years in fire…the last 15 or so in fire Information.
.

[Fun CH]

No gov agency is going to put a universal fire info site together that is as quick and responsive as first hand viewers... Their wheels just do not turn that fast... Social media whether you like it or not will always be quicker and more responsive... Look at Maui for example...

So stay in the dark if you don't want to navigate social media or the other many internet sources.. Your choice... Be proactive or not... End of story.

how do you get "stay in the dark"? The Blue Lake fire was reported by me, HERE. I asked for confirmation because the report I got was from a friend who found it on a Gov fire map and knew the exact location, above the "secret trail", Not Blue Lake.

If Gov fire personal can report on face book, they can certainly report on an official add free Gov website.

Pic from icinweb of fire near Blue Lake. I've ski climbed in that area too many times to count and know it well.

Its not Blue Lake.

[Rideback]

thanks to FB group a heads up that InciWeb has just set up the BlueLake wildfire on its page. No doubt it will take awhile to start inputting more relevant information.

https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident-infor ... gWpHcwpUVc

[pasayten]

No gov agency is going to put a universal fire info site together that is as quick and responsive as first hand viewers... Their wheels just do not turn that fast... Social media whether you like it or not will always be quicker and more responsive... Look at Maui for example...

So stay in the dark if you don't want to navigate social media or the other many internet sources.. Your choice... Be proactive or not... End of story.

[Fun CH]

.

Chris, ignorance is a result of not doing the work to become educated. You choose to not do the work.

That's your BS opinion.

You can support Zuckerberg if that's your desire but don't then turn around and attack people who support Trump, because both Zuckerberg and Trump are cut from the same billion dollar cloth.

[Rideback]

The fire is reported at 215 acres this morning. It has switched direction.

Chris, ignorance is a result of not doing the work to become educated. You choose to not do the work.

[Fun CH]

I look everywhere for info... No big deal...

as Pearl points out, it might be a big deal in an emergency situation.

A lot of of people won't use support facebook for some of the same reasons they won't support Trump (Rideback calls that being ignorant). Why should anyone have to join a private social media company in other to get accurate emergency and fire information?

I could just as easily say I vote for Trump no big deal.

From that map you posted it looks like the fire is into Alibaba* basin. That area is thick with trees in the lower basin all the through Blue peak basin and beyond until it runs into the Liberty Bell slide paths area which is pretty much solid rock.

* Alibaba is The unofficial name for this basin just west of Blue Peak Basin.

[PAL]

As I said before you may not have to join Twitter or FB, when it is posted by the Forest Service or the DOT especially when there are fires.
Also Okanogan Emergency Management is sometimes good, but they don't update their page. Just don't have the time unless there is an emergency.
Ray did a good job in prior years of keeping us updated, but it is alot of work. And there is no fire threatening the Valley at this time.
Tomorrow could be a crux day. Be aware.

[Fun CH]

your assumptions are laughable. The commentary on the fb pages for the various govt agencies is just that, mostly comments of appreciation, sometimes asking for clarification, sometimes asking for any rumors to be debunked. It works and you're commenting based not on anything informed, because you admittedly don't use fb, but I suspect you simply don't want to put the effort into getting any information...you'd rather just rattle away with criticisms you pull out of the air. Enjoy your ignorance!

ok, there's the personal attacks in responce to simple questions you never seem to answer.

Let me see if I have this right. Join facebook to get accurate vital public safety information. And join Twitter, for factual political information.

Got it.

[Rideback]

your assumptions are laughable. The commentary on the fb pages for the various govt agencies is just that, mostly comments of appreciation, sometimes asking for clarification, sometimes asking for any rumors to be debunked. It works and you're commenting based not on anything informed, because you admittedly don't use fb, but I suspect you simply don't want to put the effort into getting any information...you'd rather just rattle away with criticisms you pull out of the air. Enjoy your ignorance!

[Fun CH]

The term 'aggregators' refers to re-linking posts from the various govt entities, not passing along gossip or opinions or rumors. It is a service that means that you can go to one place and see much of the current first responder posts. There's always more places to search, because as I said disasters are always fast moving and posting happens all the time from the various entities. Once the posts from the entities are made there are always comments, some useful, some not useful but it's a conversation.

you said "with the bonus of
real time commentary from those who are in the immediate vicinity."

That is what I was responding to not gov links. So yea, people spread Rumors on social media.

Do you prefer trying to find fire information in multiple places or would one site work better?

Compartmentalizing intelligence Gathering that ultimately effected Public Safety didn't work out too well for 9/11.

Do you think that we should have to go to social media for accurate fire information?

I followed the forest service link that Pearl posted (thanks Pearl)and it took me to a link for inciweb. Still no sign of the Blue Lake fire there yet but I did see information for the first time concerning 100 acre fire at Airplane Lake that has been burning since July 7th.

Did you know about that fire Rideback through your multiple sources?

https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident-infor ... e-lake-owf


"The Airplane Lake fire was reported on July 7, 2023. The fire is burning in the Glacier Peak Wilderness.

"Fire managers will continue to utilize a confinement suppression strategy utilizing natural features (like rock escarpments, wet drainage bottoms and old fire scars) to contain the fire. Fire personnel will continue to monitor and evaluate the situation and adjust tactics as needed. As of now there are no closures in the area.

As the warm/dry weather persists, we expect similar fire behavior to continue until conditions change."

[PAL]

See links below. Not all in one spot, but these have alot of info.


Washington State Department of Transportation
Northwest Region – 1019 Andis Road – Burlington, WA 98233 – 360-757-5999

TRAVEL ADVISORY
Aug. 16, 2023
Contact: RB McKeon, communications 360-399-9328
Lauren Loebsack, communications 509-860-0000
SR 20 North Cascades Highway now closed between Newhalem and Silver Star Campground due to Sourdough and Blue Lake wildfires
NEWHALEM – The Washington State Department of Transportation in partnership with the Sourdough Fire Incident Northwest Management Team 10 and the U.S. Forest Service have extended the closure along State Route 20/North Cascades Highway from milepost 120 in Newhalem to milepost 171 at the Silver Creek gate, approximately 22 miles west of Winthrop due to the Sourdough Fire and Blue Lake Fire.
The National Park Service has closed camping, trailheads, overlooks, pullouts and other recreation east of Newhalem due to fire activity. There is no access to North Cascades national Park and Lake Chelan National Recreation Area from the Bridge Creek trailhead or via Blue Lake, Maple Pass or Twisp Pass. There are no reroutes for the Pacific Crest Trail at this time. Additional details about trail, area and camp closures are available on the North Cascades National Park Service complex website and the U.S. Forest Service alerts website.
During the closure of SR 20, people can use I-90, US 2 and 12 for east-west travel across the state.
WSDOT crews will continue to partner with Incident Managment Teams responding to both fires. Road closure information is posted in the WSDOT real-time travel center and @wsdot_north and @wsdot_east on X/Twitter and updates will be provided as available.
The Sourdough Fire started with a lightning strike on July 29 near Diablo in the steep and rugged terrain of Ross Lake National Recreation Area. The Blue Lake Fire began on Aug. 15, approximately 20 miles west of Winthrop on the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest. A cause has not determined at this time. Sections of SR 20 have been closed since Friday, Aug. 4.
Hyperlinks within the release:
• Sourdough Fire: inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident-information/warlp-sourdough-fire
• Blue Lake Fire: www.facebook.com/OkaWenNF
• North Cascades National Park Service Complex website: www.nps.gov/noca/planyourvisit/fire-closures.htm
• U.S. Forest Service alerts website: www.fs.usda.gov/alerts/okawen/alerts-notices
• Real-time travel center: wsdot.com/Travel/Real-time/Map/
• @wsdot_north: twitter.com/wsdot_north

[Rideback]

The term 'aggregators' refers to re-linking posts from the various govt entities, not passing along gossip or opinions or rumors. It is a service that means that you can go to one place and see much of the current first responder posts. There's always more places to search, because as I said disasters are always fast moving and posting happens all the time from the various entities. Once the posts from the entities are made there are always comments, some useful, some not useful but it's a conversation.

[Fun CH]

FB groups are often aggregators with the bonus of real time commentary from those who are in the immediate vicinity.

I know how that went in the Cedar Creek fire when people in the vicinity reported that firemen were sacrificing Wolf Creek to save Sun Mountain Lodge. Perception is always subject to bias.

Fire Professionals are trained to account for subjective bias and report objectively, ie facts not uninformed opinion. There is obviously lots of room for improvement and I expect more from government agencies charged with public safety, as do the people on Maui.

You gave just one reason why I don't participate in Facebook. There are many other reasons, but that's for another thread.

[Rideback]

There is no such thing as one site and everything in any disaster is in flux, partly because of speed, partly because of conditions. FB groups are often aggregators with the bonus of real time commentary from those who are in the immediate vicinity. But with FB, once you joint the other sites and pages and like their posts then they will begin to feed info to you. But, let's face it, everything in life takes a little bit of work on our part. If you don't want to put in the work, that's your option, just know that the information is out there.