EV's

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Fun CH
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Re: EV's

Post by Fun CH »

[/quote]
mister_coffee wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:33 pm Nothing wrong with e-bikes.

Although I think the real Sweet Spot for them is as city commuters and urban utility bikes. And I haven't seen an electric mountain bike that I'd consider a serious mountain bike.
This one in the link qualifies as a full suspension mountain bike. They have been out for a while now. At 160 mm front travel and 150 rear travel that matches my bike which is considered an enduro/trail bike. My bike weighs around 32 lb and that electric bike I think comes in at 45 lb.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo ... 220-216919
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Re: EV's

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We have the Rad Rover ebikes. It's been 3 years and they are really great for going further and accessing places we know we couldn't get to on a regular mountain bike wihtout it taking all day or us wearing out. However, I don't think ours belong on any single track trails(we have a throttle we don't use much) Another thing we have noticed is these are not as "nimble" as mountain bikes. The Rad Rover is heavy at 69 lbs. More like a moped almost. The tires are great as they can go over gravel well. But we have to be careful because of the weight. We do not want to fall over, especially if the bike were to land on us. I fell off for the first time 2 wks ago. I got hung up on some deep gravel and washboards. Luckily I was able to jump clear and at the same time keep the bike from going down too hard.
I have seen some ebikes more like mountain bikes and I think they are a bit more "nimble". By nimble I am meaning with the Rad, we can't make any sudden moves or sharper turns. Our Rads only go up to 20 mph.
Eventually we plan to replace these with something lighter. We did try out a Trek at Cycle and Sport, but in sand it did not perform well. It was more like a mountain bike. Not heavy.
The good thing about the ebikes is that they are good for going into town to shop, if you have paniers, so that saves on gas for sure.
The main thing for me is staying safe on our county roads.
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Re: EV's

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Rideback wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:21 am The trails in the Methow will likely be governed by new State regs that will specify a Level 1 Ebike, which means pedal assist is allowed but no throttle which discerns a Level 2.

So Chris your ebike won't be replacing your manpower.
I agree that you can still get a work out with pedal assist, but for the same trail and distance, obviously full human power will give a harder workout. At this point at 68, that's what I'm after. It makes the transition to BC skiing a lot easier.

Plus I road up to Cutthroat pass two days ago and I believe the FS doesn't allow electric bikes on that trail.( I did it ten times last year). I think a level 1 bike should be allowed there simply because some people that can't ride a full on human powered bike due to health, prior injury and age concerns.

My wife and I "rode" the Mt. Muller Trail loop over by Crescent Lake last around the end of May. It took us 6 hours starting with a 3 mile 3,000 vert foot mostly bike push as that trail is too steep to ride with my low gearing at 30×50. The next day a young couple did it on electric bikes in 3 hours.

I have test riden a friends 2x bike and they are fun, but just not for me yet, but someday definitely.
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Re: EV's

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Some e-bikes can be changed from Level 1 to Level 2 and back by a software switch...
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Re: EV's

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Nothing wrong with e-bikes.

Although I think the real Sweet Spot for them is as city commuters and urban utility bikes. And I haven't seen an electric mountain bike that I'd consider a serious mountain bike.
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Re: EV's

Post by Rideback »

The trails in the Methow will likely be governed by new State regs that will specify a Level 1 Ebike, which means pedal assist is allowed but no throttle which discerns a Level 2.

So Chris your ebike won't be replacing your manpower.
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Re: EV's

Post by Fun CH »

mister_coffee wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:35 pm Meanwhile, the Tesla Model Y was the world's best selling car in Q1 2023.
it's kind of amazing how many I see on the road. A friend purchased one of the few months ago and he says the acceleration snaps his head back.

Plus he just purchased an electric 2x assist mountain bike. I know there's one in my future but I'm not ready to give up human power just yet.
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Re: EV's

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Meanwhile, the Tesla Model Y was the world's best selling car in Q1 2023.
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Re: EV's

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Almost 14 million new vehicles were sold in the United States in 2022. Almost 750,000 of them were electric vehicles. Hydrogen vehicles have a long ways to go.
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Re: EV's

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mister_coffee wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:50 am Rigorously define "work", please.
"Hyundai Motor exceeds 10000 Nexo units sale - Green Hydrogen News"

"Sales of Nexo increased steadily over the years, rising from 727 units in 2018, the initial year of its introduction, to 4194 units in 2019, 5786 units in 2020, and 8502 units in 2021."

https://energynews.biz/hyundai-motor-ex ... nits-sale/
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Re: EV's

Post by PAL »

We're trying to solve a problem so that we can maintain our lifestyle. The freedom to driver wherever, whenever we want. That will have to change. I vote for a hover craft of some kind, powered by....hot air!
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Re: EV's

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Rigorously define "work", please.

I note that a demonstration vehicle is definitely technically feasible. But that doesn't mean that you have solved all of the engineering and business problems needed to produce such vehicles for a mass market at a competitive price. Or even any of them.

Elon Musk is a monstrous jerk. But he is a genius because he put together the people and ideas to solve those engineering and business problems for electric vehicles. Until we find another jerk who will do that for hydrogen I would not hold my breath.

To enumerate some of the problems that need to be solved:

1. Fuel cells need very pure hydrogen (approximately 99.99 percent pure) to operate. Either we need a different fuel cell design or a new fuel manufacturing process that produces hydrogen with the appropriate purity at a price competitive with EVs. Current estimates are that the "fuel" costs of hydrogen vehicles approach $16 per gallon.

2. Hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen reacts with most materials (especially most metals) and destroys them over time. What materials will we use to build fuel storage, pipelines, and plumbing to transport hydrogen. How much will that cost?

3. How do we store an appropriate amount of hydrogen fuel in a vehicle to provide a decent range of say 250 miles? How do we do that safely and at a reasonable cost?

4. What technological pathways exist to reduce the costs of fuel cells? At this point in time all known technologies for fuel cells depend on platinum and the platinum is the dominant part of the cost in fuel cells. This contrasts with known lithium battery designs which, while the require expensive and rare metals in small amounts, those metals are not what drives the cost of lithium batteries.
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Re: EV's

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yea you guys are right Hydrogen fuel cell cars can't possibly work. :roll:


"Hyundai’s hydrogen-powered Fuel Cell vehicle,"

"SEOUL, February 2, 2021 – Hyundai Motor’s NEXO Fuel Cell, available to buy now, has received the ‘Alternative Energy Car Of The Year’ Award at annual GQ Car Awards event, this year held digitally. The award was presented by English Michelin-starred chef, Tom Kerridge."

https://www.hyundai.com/worldwide/en/co ... gKHuvD_BwE
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Re: EV's

Post by PAL »

Yes, the article I posted talked about hydrogen and I didn't think that was going to work.
The main thing is that people need to drive less and alter their driving habits. That's hard to do in the Valley sometimes.
EV's will definitely get us away from polluting, but in the long term, drive less.
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Re: EV's

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mister_coffee wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:17 pm Hydrogen is an unlikely fuel technology, for a number of reasons.
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Also, maybe it is just me but from a materials safety standpoint I'd prefer my fuel to have a flame visible to the unaided human eye when it burns.
My Dad was a Chemical Engineer and pretty far up in one of the oil companies. When I was in University in Colorado a few of the Ag and Vet students from ranching backgrounds were driving about pick-up trucks that had been converted to propane fuel. Back then, there weren’t a lot of personal ‘sized’ pickups that were diesel - which used to be cheaper than gas - so maybe the propane pencilled out? This was early 1970’s. When I told my Dad I thought this was pretty cool, he said “why would anyone drive around at 65 MPH with a bomb - it’s an un-reinforced storage tank just waiting to explode in a crash!”.

Similarly, when ‘fuel cells’ became a ‘thing’ 20 or 25 years ago and everyone was going to get one - I remember listening to a news report that said ‘everyone will have a dishwasher-sized box that provides all their energy’. I asked him about them. He said, “there’s a reason that Hydrogen disappeared as a fuel after the 1930’s….it’s dangerous to manufacture, store, transport, use and dispense. It may have sone limited application in a stationary setting like a remote mine or as a standby source, but it wont ever be widely used.”
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Last edited by just-jim on Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EV's

Post by mister_coffee »

Hydrogen is an unlikely fuel technology, for a number of reasons.

While hydrogen has an excellent net energy to weight ratio, at realistic and attainable pressures hydrogen has a very poor energy to volume ratio. So you'll likely need a very large and heavy pressure tank to store a reasonable amount of fuel. And the weight of that pressure tank will likely negate the energy to weight ratio of hydrogen, because what you care about in a vehicle is the weight of the system, not just the fuel. Gaseous hydrogen also reacts with most metals and plastics so what you build your fueling system out of is an open question.

Liquid hydrogen isn't feasible, largely because liquid hydrogen is a serious cryogenic fuel that can leak through metals like aluminum. And you'd not be able to store it indefinitely as a liquid in any event.

This may have changed, but most fuel cell designs required very pure hydrogen, much purer than could be produced on a large scale with existing infrastructure.

Hydrogen fuel cells require many of the same rare earth metals that critics of electric vehicles complain about. I think we're better off being limited by cobalt than ruthenium.

Some of those problems could have been solved, but probably won't be because of the likely rapid improvement in batteries and economic of scale being achieved with batteries will make it much more difficult for alternatives to get established. If batteries reach a technological dead end or there are niches where hydrogen fuel cells are the best (or even least awful) they might get the chance to break out and achieve those economies of scale. Right now I'd bet on batteries -- we are likely to see decreased costs (and along with lower costs, less energy required to manufacture them) and higher energy to weight ratios in the coming decades.

Also, maybe it is just me but from a materials safety standpoint I'd prefer my fuel to have a flame visible to the unaided human eye when it burns.
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Re: EV's

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Fun CH
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Re: EV's

Post by Fun CH »

CBS 60 Minutes had a story on an oil company that was committed to carbon free oil. Supposedly they're set up to build a large number of carbon capture machines that take CO2 from the air and inject it into oil wells. That process not only sequesters the carbon underground, it forces more oil out.

It will be interesting to see if they live up to that commitment. If they do and as that Guardian article pointed out, the EV will die out and the environmental consequences of mining lithium and the CO2 costs associated with building an EV will be removed.

Personally I like the idea of a hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity to run electric motors in the car.
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EV's

Post by PAL »

Interesting read from the Guardian, which says it is a free paywall forum.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-atkinson
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