Guns in America - HC Richardson

dorankj
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by dorankj »

Literally, that’s the ‘abortion rights’ argument, that somehow the constitution confers some right to eliminate your pregnancy if you don’t want it!

As to the second amendment, I’m leaving nothing out when your argument is the ‘militia’ clause is how you eliminate the following language of “the people” being the ones who can keep and bear arms which is what the SCOTUS upheld and codified in Heller. The “intellectual dishonesty” is yours!
just-jim
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by just-jim »

dorankj wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:50 am “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” Maybe your understanding of language, history and linguistics is the issue! Show me similar language for a ‘right’ to kill your child if you don’t want it.
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It’s hard to be more intellectually dishonest than quoting just a fragment of the Constitution to support your ‘argument’. THAT is cherry-picking at its finest! But, hey, nice try…

No one has suggested killing children, or “a ‘right’ to kill your child if you don’t want it”. So, drop the hyperbole!

But…lets see….It seems to be OK for SCOTUS to re-interpret 100 years of history since the 14th Amendment to dis-enfranchise ½ of the population from autonomy over their own bodies and their health care decisions (I’m remembering….didn’t you experience some of that, recently, during covid too?) and drag us back to the era of slavery.

If so…therefore, it ought to be OK for the next SCOTUS to just tweak things a bit and dial things back to just the 1950’s and - again, aligned with 150 years of prior decisions - make sure you possess and BEAR only weaponry suitable for 18th century homeowner conflicts. Right?

You CAN NOT have it both ways, even if you want to. Either the Constitution has permanence and words mean what they mean. Or not….and we all live in some alternative space where words become squishy as hell - like the trumpian/faux nooz bullsh*t arena some are in now.
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Fun CH
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Fun CH »

In section 2, it seems even if you consider the militia to be an "unorganized" militia group, the Constitution still calls for them to be "well regulated."

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?pat ... 0who%20are

10 USC Ch. 12: THE MILITIA
From Title 10—ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A—General Military Law
PART I—ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 12—THE MILITIA
Sec.
246.Militia: composition and classes.
247.Militia duty: exemptions.


Editorial Notes
Amendments
2016—Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, §1241(a)(1), (o)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497, 2512, renumbered chapter 13 of this title "THE MILITIA" as chapter 12, redesignated item 311 "Militia: composition and classes" as item 246, and redesignated item 312 "Militia duty: exemptions" as item 247.

§246. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Fun CH »

dorankj wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:50 am “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” Maybe your understanding of language, history and linguistics is the issue! Show me similar language for a ‘right’ to kill your child if you don’t want it.
Ken you left out the first part of that sentence just like the left leaves out the part where Trump on J6 says to march peacefully. "

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
dorankj
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by dorankj »

“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” Maybe your understanding of language, history and linguistics is the issue! Show me similar language for a ‘right’ to kill your child if you don’t want it.
Rideback
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Rideback »

Meanwhile, Seattle neighborhood has gunfight

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/friday ... R74ZIFE3Q/
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by just-jim »

dorankj wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 10:53 pm You don’t set the ‘truth’ with one story and your conclusions from it. Militia is not another form of army, it’s the common people having the means to protect themselves as organized and collective as they choose. As such, their weaponry is to be of ‘common use’ so as to match force with capable force. If you don’t like that change the constitution with an amendment or move to jolly ol England!
It’s not “one” story, Ken. And you clearly dont understand the history, or the language, of the amendment.
“Militia” IS the ‘army’ - the word cant be read any other way, historically or linguistically.

Anyway…..you think a change in the interpretation of the Constitution is OK?
Then….I guess you’ll be OK If gun laws that existed for 150 years - then changed for the last 60 - are again reversed?
That would be sort of like….oh..I dont know…. abortion?
It was NOT OK for a similar period - then OK’d. Then banned, again after 50 years.
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So, you are thinking it’s OK to interpret gun laws like they were prior to 1959? Or, leave the question to each State?
OK….great! We are in agreement! Finally! Thanks…I knew you’d see it the right way, eventually.
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dorankj
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by dorankj »

You don’t set the ‘truth’ with one story and your conclusions from it. Militia is not another form of army, it’s the common people having the means to protect themselves as organized and collective as they choose. As such, their weaponry is to be of ‘common use’ so as to match force with capable force. If you don’t like that change the constitution with an amendment or move to jolly ol England!
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by just-jim »

dorankj wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:59 pm ….Also why don’t we worry if the drunk driver used a Ferrari or a Ford fiesta to kill people? And there’s definitely NO constitutional right to drive, hence all the laws and restrictions.
Once again you didnt read the original post did ya? There was NO interpretation of the Constitution, prior to 1959, that allowed a Ferrari in the hands of anyone with enough cash to own one. For 150+ years that worked.

Chief Justice of the Supreme Court (1969 - 1986), Warren Burger;

“The Gun Lobby’s interpretation of the Second Amendment is one of the greatest pieces of fraud - I repeat the word fraud - on the American People by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime. The real purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure that state armies – the militia – would be maintained for the defense of the state. The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any kind of weapon he or she desires.” Warren Burger, 1990
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Burger was a Nixon appointee. Hardly a liberal, he was called a moderate, but many might consider him one of the more conservative Justices - certainly for a Chief Justice - in recent years

dorankj wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:59 pm Who cares what a small island with lots of people concentrated and no constitutionally protected freedom do?
Here’s WHY:
27 years ago, a gunman entered Dunblane Primary School in Scotland, killing 16 kids and a teacher.
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The UK govt responded by enacting tighter gun control legislation, even though they had strict gun laws to begin with.
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In the 9850+ days since, there have been a total of O school shootings in the UK.
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ZERO, in a country of over 67 Million people.
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In that ‘small island’ there are a lot of places as remote as the methow when it comes to emergency response…..and the populace doesnt need to get advice from their government on how to protect themselves from rouge, idiotic, Ferrari drivers (even ones with issues about their tiny genitals).

No, no ‘Constitution’ there, but a country over 1000 years old with a lot less violence than we have. Hmmmmm?
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dorankj
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by dorankj »

When seconds count cops are minutes away! Or in the case of us in the Methow, sometimes hours. Who cares what a small island with lots of people concentrated and no constitutionally protected freedom do? Comparing apples to rutabagas. Also why don’t we worry if the drunk driver used a Ferrari or a Ford fiesta to kill people? And there’s definitely NO constitutional right to drive, hence all the laws and restrictions.
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Fun CH »

A post from a music forum I visit.

"Nobody has guns in the UK, apart from a few posh people who go hunting, and maybe farmers. I mean, gun ownership in the UK is so minimal that most people don't even know who can and can't have one.

Not that anybody wants one, or cares. It's not like people are walking around going, "Oh, if only I could have a gun then everything would be ok."

This includes everybody, from the left to the right, from the sane to the wackos. No guns. It's a total non-issue.

When we see otherwise rational human beings arguing they have a right to own assault weapons that can stop a tank at a 1,000 yards, we think they've totally and utterly lost the f'ing plot.

But hey, that's just us. A country of 60 million poeple. Guns, no thanks.

I quite like those YouTube vids though where they get hot babes to fire machine guns at stuff. I probably shouldn't though."
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Fun CH »

Rideback wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 12:13 pm So your pretzel logic would have readers believe that the FBI made a video on how to survive a mass shooting as a way of blaming the victims if they get shot because they don't follow instructions?

I really don't know how you reached the conclusion that the post implies that the FBI video is about victim blaming.

The video states that once the shooting starts there are things that you can do to mitigate the risk of becoming a casualty. I'm all for learning risk mitigation in any situation.

I am however saying that there are things we can do to improve any individuals well being. That does not include directing derogatory language and insults at someone, which ultimately correlates to violence.

Until guns are banned (not likely), there is a lot we can do on a personal level to turn down the heat on the pressure cooker. Seems many on the left aren't willing to take that step. They want to blame the "others", instead of participating in mitigating risk as much as HUMANLY possible.
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

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So your pretzel logic would have readers believe that the FBI made a video on how to survive a mass shooting as a way of blaming the victims if they get shot because they don't follow instructions?
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Fun CH »

just-jim wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:24 pm .
And now…we have to ‘teach’ survival strategy, battlefield tactics and field emergency medicine to each other…because we cant deal with the cause of the violence - and outlaw it - in the first place?
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A new PSA from the FBI. https://newrepublic.com/post/172562/ame ... -shootings
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So f**ked up.
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no doubt that people need to learn how to mitigate risk.

when a person participates in demonizing his neighbor, then that person needs to examine how that rhetoric "connects to real world violence". Isn't it better to mitigate that risk at its sourse, before the violence starts?

"How hateful rhetoric connects to real-world violence"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brooki ... lence/amp/

"Conservative websites and political leaders, especially at the state and local level, now regularly use violent rhetoric and demonize their political opponents. In addition, the high levels of polarization make it more likely that violent rhetoric will spread to both sides of the political debate. Already, violent rhetoric is growing on the political left."

I see that dynamic playing out on this website and many others. Yet when people on the left speak out against that type of rhetoric on the left, they are met with derogatory comments and insults directed towards them.

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.” --Martin Luther King
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by mister_coffee »

Rideback wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 5:20 am Yes and now a girl is shot in the back of the head, while playing hide & seek.
When in doubt pick up your gun and just start shooting.
https://crooksandliars.com/2023/05/man- ... while-shes
We should also keep in mind that the 58-year-old man who shot this girl was very likely a "law-abiding gun owner" right up to the moment where he started shooting at kids.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Rideback »

Yes and now a girl is shot in the back of the head, while playing hide & seek.
When in doubt pick up your gun and just start shooting.
https://crooksandliars.com/2023/05/man- ... while-shes
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by just-jim »

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And now…we have to ‘teach’ survival strategy, battlefield tactics and field emergency medicine to each other…because we cant deal with the cause of the violence - and outlaw it - in the first place?
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A new PSA from the FBI. https://newrepublic.com/post/172562/ame ... -shootings
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So f**ked up.
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Fun CH »

Rideback wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 7:28 am I've lost all interest in the identities of the shooters, they are all generic to me.
then perhaps stop venting on the internet and giving more attention to mass shooters, which seems to be what they desire. Everything is covered to the extreme already but each shooting gets amplified on sites like this.

Left wing Meme's Amplified all over social media like "thoughts and prayers aren't working" is obvious, as the intension of prayer is not to solve a political problem. That meme is just a political dig and is divisive.

What I'm saying is that each one of us needs to consider that their actions, or lack of meaningful action, may be part of the problem.

https://www.center4research.org/copy-cats-kill/

"Violent events are often covered by news outlets in great detail and spread immediately through mass media and social media. Experts believe that this media coverage can inspire others to copy these actions or commit similar crimes.[1] This is often called the media contagion effect, and it happens with suicide, terrorist attacks, and mass shootings. Other experts report that a better explanation is the tendency for people to imitate behaviors that get a lot of attention.
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

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I've lost all interest in the identities of the shooters, they are all generic to me.
What they have in common is that no matter their problem, their gripe, their mental illness they all have had access to weapons that can shoot the face off a small child.

Just saw this on the national news. We all focus on the mass shootings but in the US we average 316 people shot every day.
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by just-jim »

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IMG_1315.jpeg
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

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Meanwhile the Allen, TX shooter over the weekend is associated with the RWDS or Right Wing Death Squad and also posted on a Russian site.

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.c ... email=true
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Fun CH »

Rideback wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 1:48 pm
So, multi task. Get the assault weapons banned, do better to stop bullying, break up the gangs and the white supremacists, chase down the terrorists but praying isn't the answer.
yes, we can walk and chew gum at the same time and that includes prayer for people of faith.

In this situation, Praying is done as a coping mechanism and to remember and console the victims who survived, family, local community the nation. I don't think criticizing people for exercising their faith is a good or moral strategy for liberals. That down playing of the role of prayer only supports the narrative that we are on the left are faithless demons, which of course is not true.

A better path would be to point out that prayer without a willingness for repentance is of little value.

Surly it is a sin to see the effects of gun violence and turn a blind eye towards meaningful action.

Surly it is a sin not see the role guns play in that violence or recognize the moneyed interest of the NRA lining the pockets of politicians like Ted Cruz or Governor Greg Abbott who instill fear and hate in your heart to serve their self-interest gain.

I would argue that prayer can be effective if it drives a person towards meaningful action.

This one for example.

"A Prayer in the Face of Gun Violence
Almighty God,

I come before you,
once again,after another shooting.

I am sad, God.
So I ask You
to receive into your loving care the souls of those who were killed,
to care for those who were wounded or hurt in any way, to console the family members and friends of those who died or were wounded,
to strengthen the hands of the rescue workers, medical professionals and caregivers.

I pray too for the shooter, as I must as a Christian.

All this makes me inexpressibly sad, God. But I know that the sadness I feel is your sadness.
It is the same sadness your son expressed when he wept over the death of his friend Lazarus.

I am tired, God.
I'm tired of the unwillingness to see this as an important issue.
I'm tired of those in power who work to prevent any real change.
I'm tired of those who say that gun violence can't be reduced.

All this makes me tired.
But I know that the tiredness I feel is your tiredness.
It's the same tiredness that Jesus felt after his own struggles
against injustice that led him to fall asleep on the boat with his disciples.

I am angry, God.

I am angry at the seeming powerlessness of our community to prevent this.
I'm angry at the selfish financial interests who block change.
I'm angry that these shootings happen at all. But I know that this anger is your anger
It's the same anger Jesus felt when he overturned the tables in the Temple,
angry that anyone would be taken advantage of in anyway.

Help me see in these emotions your own desire for change.
Help me see in these feelings your moving me to act.
Help me see in these reactions your pushing me to do something.

Because I know this is the way you move people to action.
And I know that you desire action.
For Jesus did not stand by while people were being hurt.
He plunged into their lives.

So help me to answer these questions:
How can I help?
How can I fight against gun violence?
How can I urge my political leaders to enact change?
How can I help people understand that this is an issue about life?

I am sad over the loss of life,
tired of excuses for the loss of life,
and angry that we are paralyzed by the loss of life.

So

Turn my sadness into compassion.

Turn my tiredness into advocacy.
Turn my paralysis into the freedom to act.

Help me
to be compassionate
to advocate
and to act,
as your son did,
Almighty God.

- James Martin S.J."


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What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
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Re: Guns in America - HC Richardson

Post by Rideback »

FBI: 2000-2013 report

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/pre ... 3.pdf/view

Yesterday's shooter: WaPo -
ALLEN, Tex. — The gunman who opened fire on an outlet mall in a Dallas suburb Saturday, killing at least eight people, was a man in his early 30s who may have had white supremacist or neo-Nazi beliefs, people familiar with the investigation said Sunday.

Mauricio Garcia, a local resident, had multiple weapons on him and in his nearby car, said people familiar with the investigation who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the ongoing probe.

Authorities have not released a motive, but a patch on his chest said “RWDS,” an acronym that stands for Right Wing Death Squad, according to people familiar with the investigation. The phrase is popular among right wing extremists, neo-Nazis and white supremacists, they said. In addition to the weapons found on his body, investigators found another five guns inside his car nearby, these people said.'

Back to Mr. Coffee's post. No matter the characterization of the shooters the guns are their weapon of choice, particularly the assault weapons. Whether it's kids that are bullied, lone wolf attackers, white supremacists or terrorists that are the shooters all of them are choosing the assault weapons.

So, multi task. Get the assault weapons banned, do better to stop bullying, break up the gangs and the white supremacists, chase down the terrorists but praying isn't the answer.
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