Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Except those snowmobiles are not abandoned and are there with permission by the US Forest Service. As previously stated by the WSDOT, the FS controls winter recreation use on hwy 20 beyond the closure point.
What you posted states the vehicles are considered abandoned after a certain time period unless authorized by the US Forest Service. Once again, those BC skier snowmobiles are obviously authorized to be there.
Nice try but no banana.
What you posted states the vehicles are considered abandoned after a certain time period unless authorized by the US Forest Service. Once again, those BC skier snowmobiles are obviously authorized to be there.
Nice try but no banana.
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- mister_coffee
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
One of these two laws definitely covers what is going on at Early Winters:
Washington State, abandoned vehicles or other property in the right-of-way:
https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.55.085
Federal, USFS abandoned vehicles and property:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/262.12
Note that for Washington State, a vehicle left in the right-of-way (e.g. on a highway shoulder) is considered abandoned if it is left unattended for 24 hours after notice is posted or the owner is contacted.
Note that for the USFS, property is considered abandoned if it is left unattended for 72 hours if the identity of the owner is unknown and 120 hours if the identity of the owner is known.
I suspect that if you call the USFS about this, they will say it is outside of their jurisdiction and that you should call DOT or the State Patrol. If you call DOT or the State Patrol I suspect they will tell you to call the USFS. It would likely take a pretty shrewd lawyer and a court order to figure out who is really responsible. So the plaintiffs can ask for an injunction blocking snowmobile access there until the jurisdictional issues are resolved.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
We didn't ski the south summit this year. Late contract, just approved last month and inconsistant postings as to grooming. So we didn't buy a now $50 pass.
At this time, do the snowmobilers pay for a parking permit there or do they have to have permits to go up the road?
I remember that they used to only plow just to the sign and no further. But they have plowed further. Their choice? Or is there an agreement that they do? Who decides that the DOT budget is strained for doing the plowing? Are the taxpayers already paying them to do that? Are they getting funding to do the plowing? I ask these questions because I think you might know how it is being funded.
I never said anyone was freeloading up there. You should not be harassed either. I, as a skier would never approach someone to harass them about parking there unless I got blocked in. Otherwise I like to leave well enough alone.
At this time, do the snowmobilers pay for a parking permit there or do they have to have permits to go up the road?
I remember that they used to only plow just to the sign and no further. But they have plowed further. Their choice? Or is there an agreement that they do? Who decides that the DOT budget is strained for doing the plowing? Are the taxpayers already paying them to do that? Are they getting funding to do the plowing? I ask these questions because I think you might know how it is being funded.
I never said anyone was freeloading up there. You should not be harassed either. I, as a skier would never approach someone to harass them about parking there unless I got blocked in. Otherwise I like to leave well enough alone.
Pearl Cherrington
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
When you ski at the South Summit, a Snowpark permit is required to park in that lot. Don't you have one anyway?
Snow park plowing is funded by the sale of Snowpark permits, so users of those services pay for them, but cross country skiers are somehow exempt because they purchased a MT pass?
Since Methow Trails doesn't pay to plow the lot at EW that means tax dollars from the WSDOT budget are used and yet Methow Trails is trying to claim exclusive use to that lot simply by placing bogus signs.
Is it fair to further strain the WSDOT budget or should people that use those parking services pay for them?
The irony is that I have a Snow Park permit but I'm constantly harassed by cross country skiers for parking in a State owned and maintained winter recreational area. Who's really doing the freeloading in that case?
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Well, that's a touchy one for me having it be designated to require a Snow Park permit, although, as shown it does qualify. You know why I don't want that however. I pay for a ski pass and then also would have to pay for a Snow Park permit. I admit, I do earn my MT ski pass, and pay much less.
For years, snowmobiles have been left up there, but not nearly as many. Now it can be a zoo.
I mean this could be taken one step further. What about the helicopters that go up there? They are polluting. Noise, exhaust.
Ski the trails during the week, if you can. That's what we do and have had no problem. I admit I was surprised a couple of weeks ago when I saw many ramps, but didn't get upset about it. It's a parking area for everyone until MT, WDSOT or FS does something about it.
And it used to be that it was rare that snowmobilers parked in there at all. I can only figure that it is because of the volume that they started doing that.
For years, snowmobiles have been left up there, but not nearly as many. Now it can be a zoo.
I mean this could be taken one step further. What about the helicopters that go up there? They are polluting. Noise, exhaust.
Ski the trails during the week, if you can. That's what we do and have had no problem. I admit I was surprised a couple of weeks ago when I saw many ramps, but didn't get upset about it. It's a parking area for everyone until MT, WDSOT or FS does something about it.
And it used to be that it was rare that snowmobilers parked in there at all. I can only figure that it is because of the volume that they started doing that.
Pearl Cherrington
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
I agree with you here. Its funny that you offer all these legal opinions without citing any laws, State or National forest rules.
Forest Service District Rangers have a lot of discretion on how the Forest is used. See: categorical exclusion.
BC Skiers who park their snowmobiles at EW are obviously doing that with permission from the Forest Service so obviously no crimes are being committed.
Imagine the alternative. Either Drive a high gas mileage car to your Parked snow machine and find easy parking, or trailer the snowmobile each time you want to use it at Early Winters. Then try to find a place to park a truck with a trailer in the EW parking area.
In my opinion, since the State owns and plows the lot at EW, it should be designated as a winter recreational parking area and a Snow Park permit should be required to park there.
"RCW 46.61.585
Winter recreational parking areas — Special permit required. Except when
necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic, or in compliance with law or the directions of a police officer or official traffic control device, no person shall park a vehicle in an
area designated by an official sign that it is a winter recreational parking area unless such vehicle displays, in accordance with regulations adopted by the parks and recreation
commission, a special winter recreational area parking permit or permits."
From Snowpark code of conduct:
"Do not interfere with or harass others. People may judge all participants in your activity by your actions".
https://www.wta.org/go-outside/trail-sm ... a-sno-park
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- mister_coffee
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
What I strenuously object to about snowmobile users at Early Winters is that the USFS and the state are not enforcing their own laws. There are specific rules about how long you can leave property (e.g. snowmobiles and fuel) unattended both in a state highway right of way and on USFS land. On Forest Service land I think the time limit is 72 hours. You can go to court to get government agencies to enforce their laws, and it wouldn't be my legal opinion: it would be a judge's legal opinion.
Both the huts and Methow Trails operate under a permit with the USFS. I am sure in the many pages of boilerplate contract there is verbiage about a requirement for the safe and proper storage of fuel. I frequently ski at Cub Creek and have never personally observed spilled fuel and fuel leaks there, while the spilled fuel has often been quite noticeable some years on the south side of 20 near Early Winters Campground. At least in those two cases there is a responsible party the USFS can go to, and it isn't just some unlabeled and unidentified fuel cans in a snowbank near Early Winters Creek (I note that the snowcat and snowmobile parking area at Cub Creek is considerably further from Cub Creek than Early Winters Campground is from Early Winters Creek, and the shed at Chickadee is even further from a running stream).
Also, at least until this season all of the snowcat and snowmobile storage and servicing at Cub Creek was on private land. With the new arrangement (and it is rather lame, with available parking for only about a dozen cars) that is no longer clear. So it is subject to different rules.
There are lots of nonprofits that live for suing public agencies over stuff like this. So even if N3C is busy (which I doubt they are *that* busy) I'm sure someone else might step up if they perceive there is a problem. So if snowmobilers want to preserve access at Early Winters all they have to do is comply with the law and not store snowmobiles and fuel there. Maybe I am biased an uninformed but to me that doesn't seem all that difficult.
Both the huts and Methow Trails operate under a permit with the USFS. I am sure in the many pages of boilerplate contract there is verbiage about a requirement for the safe and proper storage of fuel. I frequently ski at Cub Creek and have never personally observed spilled fuel and fuel leaks there, while the spilled fuel has often been quite noticeable some years on the south side of 20 near Early Winters Campground. At least in those two cases there is a responsible party the USFS can go to, and it isn't just some unlabeled and unidentified fuel cans in a snowbank near Early Winters Creek (I note that the snowcat and snowmobile parking area at Cub Creek is considerably further from Cub Creek than Early Winters Campground is from Early Winters Creek, and the shed at Chickadee is even further from a running stream).
Also, at least until this season all of the snowcat and snowmobile storage and servicing at Cub Creek was on private land. With the new arrangement (and it is rather lame, with available parking for only about a dozen cars) that is no longer clear. So it is subject to different rules.
There are lots of nonprofits that live for suing public agencies over stuff like this. So even if N3C is busy (which I doubt they are *that* busy) I'm sure someone else might step up if they perceive there is a problem. So if snowmobilers want to preserve access at Early Winters all they have to do is comply with the law and not store snowmobiles and fuel there. Maybe I am biased an uninformed but to me that doesn't seem all that difficult.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Thanks for bearing Witness to yet another one of David's disinformation attempts aimed at supporting his agenda. Hey David, you did take a photo of the 'snowmobiler' who parked you in, right?
Unfortunately fuel leaks are inevitable whether it's at the gas station or fueling my ag tractor at home. I'm guessing most everyone out there tries to be careful when fueling anything.
Those types of leaks are just to drop in the bucket, but they do add up.
Now Google how much methane is leaked by the oil industry to produce the gasoline and other fuels and plastics we all use. Also leaks from pipelines, tankers, underground storage tanks, etc.
As you say Pearl, lots of new people floating around here. And as you say it's best to adapt. I try to get to the EW lot early on weekends and holidays if I expect to get a legal parking spot.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
In no way was I suggesting you be the police in that post from Feb. 2022. I thought, since you are up on this issue you could let the snowmobile communty know info regarding the leaks, closure. But the FS, WDOT won't shut the parking area down, really. Neither will NC3. They are involved in a bigger lawsuit right now regarding the Twisp "Restoration" (logging) Project.
Right, those signs have not been there 30 yrs. Chris is correct, they were put up about 3 yrs. ago.
Are fuel leaks inevitable and is it only from a few where it happens? Are most people who snowmobile conscientious and aware of leakages that happen? And I am assuming the FS knows that leaks happen. It is up to that agency, I would guess to look into it. But with lack of staffing, funds, etc. it won't happen.
And again, it just became very busy through the years. It has been "discovered" as a mecca. Like anything, overuse from humans, an area will feel the effects.
But skiers really can't go around pointing out things to the snowmobilers. Well you can, but it won't get anywhere. It has to come from someone in that community. And even then... Most people do not like to be told what to do, or have things pointed out. Ideas and suggestions are rebuffed.
So when I go to park up there and it's full, I"ll just find a place somewhere, if I want to ski bad enough from there. It's the way it is.
It is sad however that an area becomes trashed. I see trash from skiers as well. Someone usually accidently drops a Goo packed, a gum wrapper,
energy bar wrapper, or any number of items, usuallly small. But it adds up. So it all makes me sad to see the human impact.
Right, those signs have not been there 30 yrs. Chris is correct, they were put up about 3 yrs. ago.
Are fuel leaks inevitable and is it only from a few where it happens? Are most people who snowmobile conscientious and aware of leakages that happen? And I am assuming the FS knows that leaks happen. It is up to that agency, I would guess to look into it. But with lack of staffing, funds, etc. it won't happen.
And again, it just became very busy through the years. It has been "discovered" as a mecca. Like anything, overuse from humans, an area will feel the effects.
But skiers really can't go around pointing out things to the snowmobilers. Well you can, but it won't get anywhere. It has to come from someone in that community. And even then... Most people do not like to be told what to do, or have things pointed out. Ideas and suggestions are rebuffed.
So when I go to park up there and it's full, I"ll just find a place somewhere, if I want to ski bad enough from there. It's the way it is.
It is sad however that an area becomes trashed. I see trash from skiers as well. Someone usually accidently drops a Goo packed, a gum wrapper,
energy bar wrapper, or any number of items, usuallly small. But it adds up. So it all makes me sad to see the human impact.
Pearl Cherrington
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Sorry Pearl, its not up to me to police private citizens engaged in legal activity.PAL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:28 pm Chris can you let other, responsible mobilers know that there is a situation developing where they may be denied access if someone does try to do an injunction. I say stop the bad behavior before that happens. We absolutely don't want snowmobilers to be stopped from being there. The state or someone grooms the road don't they? But if some people are making a mess, they have to show that they will clean it up.
The FS controls how the hwy is used beyond the closure point and they are aware of and allow snowmobiles (these are used by BC skiers) to park and fuel their machines just beyond the closure point. The local mountain guide service, NCMG, also parks, fuels and stages its operations out of that area.
I seriously doubt any one believes that snowmobile access to HWY 20 will be blocked based on the legal opinion of David Bonn.
As far as the the snowmobile grooming goes. The grooming is done by a local grooming organization that split off from the snowmobile club many years ago. Funds to groom are provided by grants (when they can be obtained) and snowmobile registration fees. The program is administered by State parks and recreation. There's also a local citizen Advisory Board.
And to reiterate a fact, the snowmobiles parked at EW are used by Backcountry skiers. Park on the hwy at a destination point and climb skiable terrain using human power.
That's a load of BS. MT placed their bogus signs the year this thread was started using temporary signs stuck in the snow. MT then screwed more permanent signs into the trees. So 3 years, not 30.
So what's your problem, do you not like snowmobiles unless they're grooming the trails or running gear up to the huts for you? You do know that the snowmobiles out at Cub Creek are stored and fueled there and used to ferry cross country ski gear up to the hut system. Are you going to try to get an injunction against that operation also?
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Those signs have been there at least thirty years.
Y'know, if anyone ***really*** wanted to be an obnoxious jerk about this, they'd call up N3C or some similar organization, which would promptly sue the USFS and get an injunction against snowmobilers parking there until the issues with cached snowmobiles and fuel are sorted out. At a minimum the state and USFS would have to agree on a management and enforcement plan for snowmobile users before they would be allowed there.
It may be true that some skiers are impolite and obnoxious. But they aren't polluting the river.
Y'know, if anyone ***really*** wanted to be an obnoxious jerk about this, they'd call up N3C or some similar organization, which would promptly sue the USFS and get an injunction against snowmobilers parking there until the issues with cached snowmobiles and fuel are sorted out. At a minimum the state and USFS would have to agree on a management and enforcement plan for snowmobile users before they would be allowed there.
It may be true that some skiers are impolite and obnoxious. But they aren't polluting the river.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
I've seen both Campers and snowmobile trailers park in that lot and its legal to do so. Its not up to Methow Trails to regulate parking in a public State owned parking lot. The email from the WSDOT is very clear on that point.PAL wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 6:34 pm To me, MT put those signs up to say no camping and no trailers. Trailers can be interpreted to mean ones you sleep in, or trailers, as in something that is towed. And I wouldn't think the kind of trailers that have snowmobiles would not want to park in there. It is too tight. I've never seen that kind in there.
Pearl
Quote from WSDOT: "Methow Trails does not pay us to plow or have any purview over any WSDOT right of way. People can park there is they wish..."
If camping became a problem then, its up to the State to deal with it, not MT. MT has no "purview" over any "WSDOT right of way" and neither do you and I. Concerned citizens can however become involved in these types of public land issues so bad actors can be held accountable for their actions.
The point is, MT is perverting the truth by placing those signs and it is causing me and I'm guessing others to be harressed.
Fraud
"intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right"
"ha·rass
/həˈras,ˈherəs/
verb
subject to aggressive pressure or intimidation."
Bad actor:
"person or organization responsible for actions that are harmful, illegal, or morally wrong:"
"pur·view
/ˈpərˌvyo͞o/
nounFORMAL
the scope of the influence or concerns of something."
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
I do wish people would just not make it a confrontation scene. But now I am confused. She said the FS owns the trailhead area. I am interpreting that as the very entrance to the trailhead. Is that correct?
If it's super crowded with trucks with ramps, trucks, Sprint vans, then we skiers or anyone else for that matter, will have park where they can. That's the reality. It's first come, first served, it sounds like.
Why get into a "war" over it. We are all there to recreate. To me, MT put those signs up to say no camping and no trailers. Trailers can be interpreted to mean ones you sleep in, or trailers, as in something that is towed. And I wouldn't think the kind of trailers that have snowmobiles would not want to park in there. It is too tight. I've never seen that kind in there.
Pearl
If it's super crowded with trucks with ramps, trucks, Sprint vans, then we skiers or anyone else for that matter, will have park where they can. That's the reality. It's first come, first served, it sounds like.
Why get into a "war" over it. We are all there to recreate. To me, MT put those signs up to say no camping and no trailers. Trailers can be interpreted to mean ones you sleep in, or trailers, as in something that is towed. And I wouldn't think the kind of trailers that have snowmobiles would not want to park in there. It is too tight. I've never seen that kind in there.
Pearl
Pearl Cherrington
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Yesterday I parked at the EW public lot with my truck ramp down. A valley acquaintance and former MT board member approached and informed me that the signs say "no trailers".
I asked him where he saw a trailer. So he looks at my snowmobile unloading ramp and says "oh".
He was still intent on seeing me out of his perceived exclusive parking lot so you can imagine the harassment I was about to receive.
I told him that I'd post the WSDOT emails that point to the MT signs as being "bogus" and then he could send me an apology.
Here are the complete emails from the wsdot communications director.
Dated 2-2-21
"Thank you for reaching out to us to share your thoughts on the closure points up on SR 20, I passed along your email to the area superintendent so he can share with the crews up there.
To answer your questions, we do own that parking lot that you described, as well as most of the property around the shed and we plow that area. We do not own the trailhead area (I believe that is USFS).
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Take care-
Lauren Loebsack, "
Dated 2-18-21
"Well, the rumor is just a rumor. Methow Trails does not pay us to plow or have any purview over any WSDOT right of way. People can park there is they wish, but not camp/loiter.
Hope that clears it up. Take care and safe travels-
L"
I asked him where he saw a trailer. So he looks at my snowmobile unloading ramp and says "oh".
He was still intent on seeing me out of his perceived exclusive parking lot so you can imagine the harassment I was about to receive.
I told him that I'd post the WSDOT emails that point to the MT signs as being "bogus" and then he could send me an apology.
Here are the complete emails from the wsdot communications director.
Dated 2-2-21
"Thank you for reaching out to us to share your thoughts on the closure points up on SR 20, I passed along your email to the area superintendent so he can share with the crews up there.
To answer your questions, we do own that parking lot that you described, as well as most of the property around the shed and we plow that area. We do not own the trailhead area (I believe that is USFS).
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Take care-
Lauren Loebsack, "
Dated 2-18-21
"Well, the rumor is just a rumor. Methow Trails does not pay us to plow or have any purview over any WSDOT right of way. People can park there is they wish, but not camp/loiter.
Hope that clears it up. Take care and safe travels-
L"
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
More parking space is available next to the State sand shed. That area would need to be plowed using tax money and diverting more equipment and time resources away from keeping our roads safe for things like School Bus routes along Hwy20.PAL wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:03 pm Is it possible to have that parking lot enlarged? Also, can the snowmobiles, with trailers park on both sides of the road? From what I could tell by looking up there, there isn't enough room.
Those signs emphasize no overnight parking and trailers. I don't consider the ramps trailers. And the truth is, they can park there legally.
Of course they should not block anyone in.
Oh, I remember way back when, when I would ski up the highway and there was no one there. I was alone. Can you believe it? I saw a mom coyote and her 2 pups. That was special. Now it has grown.
So back to my question, should that parking area and can that parking area be enlarged? And would it help? Or relocated for the snowmobiles? We started going over to Base Camp when it got really crowded during Covid. But I do like leaving from the Early Winters trailhead to ski the trails. Last time we went there were more trucks with ramps than cross country skiers. But I know it must get jammed.
I see this more as a people problem by a minority of people who feel a sense of entitlement to impose their agenda on other free people, even though the rule of law does not support that agenda.
In other words, same old same old.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Is it possible to have that parking lot enlarged? Also, can the snowmobiles, with trailers park on both sides of the road? From what I could tell by looking up there, there isn't enough room.
Those signs emphasize no overnight parking and trailers. I don't consider the ramps trailers. And the truth is, they can park there legally.
Of course they should not block anyone in.
Oh, I remember way back when, when I would ski up the highway and there was no one there. I was alone. Can you believe it? I saw a mom coyote and her 2 pups. That was special. Now it has grown.
So back to my question, should that parking area and can that parking area be enlarged? And would it help? Or relocated for the snowmobiles? We started going over to Base Camp when it got really crowded during Covid. But I do like leaving from the Early Winters trailhead to ski the trails. Last time we went there were more trucks with ramps than cross country skiers. But I know it must get jammed.
Those signs emphasize no overnight parking and trailers. I don't consider the ramps trailers. And the truth is, they can park there legally.
Of course they should not block anyone in.
Oh, I remember way back when, when I would ski up the highway and there was no one there. I was alone. Can you believe it? I saw a mom coyote and her 2 pups. That was special. Now it has grown.
So back to my question, should that parking area and can that parking area be enlarged? And would it help? Or relocated for the snowmobiles? We started going over to Base Camp when it got really crowded during Covid. But I do like leaving from the Early Winters trailhead to ski the trails. Last time we went there were more trucks with ramps than cross country skiers. But I know it must get jammed.
Pearl Cherrington
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
It actually is the skiers who are caching gear and fueling their machines at the trail head.mister_coffee wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:27 am And it isn't skiers caching gear and fuel at the trailhead and polluting Early Winters Creek.
Hope you saw the question I asked you above.
The reason I asked is because the person who harassed me when legally parking in a public parking lot has a similar non fact based provocative style as you pose here. If it was you, you most certainly would have known that I was legally parked.
You also would have known that MT has no purview in how that lot is used by the public, including the ability to legally park trailers despite what the bogus MT signs state.
So please answer the question.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Have to ask, David, was that you who approached me that day?Fun CH wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:37 am On Sunday I parked my snowmobile loaded truck in the State owned parking lot at Early Winters. I was having a good morning packing up my sled for three days of sking and two nights of camping near Washington Pass.
Then it happened. I was approached by a 70'S something man just stepping out of his $80,000 car. His stated desire was that I go park out on the state highway "where I belong" and not in the public parking lot.
A long time friend waiting for me chimed in telling the man in the $80,000 car, "he knows the rules" . This was referring to the fact that I have discussed this matter with the WSDOT and know that the State owns that parking lot, plows it, and that Methow Trails has, according to the WSDOT, "no purview" over how parking is dictated in that public parking lot.
I politely informed the man in the $80,000 car that "I will park where I want to park". He pointed to the 5 exclusionary signs that Methow Trails has nailed on the older growth trees that ring that public parking lot that are worded;
"Methow trails" - "no trailers -no overnight parking".
I didn't have trailer and only I knew I was parking overnight but I was quite obviously a snowmobiler. I explained to the man in the $80,000 car that the signs were "bogus". I think he knew that those signs were fake. The MT sign prop obviously suited his agenda and so he restated his position that I needed to get out of a cross country skier exclusive parking lot, as if somehow restating a concoction gave it truth.
That's when I said "go away, and told him that his behavior placed a "damper on my morning".
He shoved his hand towards me and said "lets shake" as if shaking my hand would somehow resolve his rude provocative behavior.
"Just go away" I said and off he went back to his $80,000 car.
I blame Methow Trails for trying to claim rights to a public parking lot that they have "no purview" to claim. They are the ones, despite their good work in the Valley, who are choosing to create user group conflict by continuing to displays their "bogus" signs".
I own a life time pass to the MT system and do not appreciate being on the receiving end of the conflict that MT creates.
bo·gus
/ˈbōɡəs/
not genuine or true; fake.
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Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
mister_coffee wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:42 pm
Who here can get cell reception to make a call at Early Winters? And how far would you have to go to make a call? Asking for a tired skier at Jack's Trailhead.
My friends and I have no problem making cell phone calls from the Early Winters trailhead public parking lot.
Calling home is the first thing I do when I get safely back down out of the mountains.
That is a bonus feature of having that public lot to use (so is the outhouse). There is no cell phone reception at the rarely open Silver Star snowpark or down where the skiers stash their $200 to $13,000 machines at the Early Winters Hwy closure point.
MT and other commercial interests (and the snowmobile club president)supported the Silverstar Snowpark because it benefits their commercialization of the North Cascades mountains agenda (powder for sale). Not because it benefits the snowmobile/BC skier culture that has existed here since around the time the highway opened. Unless of course you believe that shutting down 7 miles of Mountain snowmobiling is a benefit.
A friend wrote me that greed creates mistrust. I would argue that Methow Trails, as a beneficial community organization, should be doing all it can to foster inclusiveness rather that feeding people's prejudice of exclusion.
IMO, those signs reenforce the us vs. them false hearted premise of our time.
Those signs have to go.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Who here can get cell reception to make a call at Early Winters? And how far would you have to go to make a call? Asking for a tired skier at Jack's Trailhead.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
mister_coffee wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:27 am
There are some other points of view. I got blocked in (along with a couple of other skiers) by a rig with a trailer in late December. There are clearly bad actors on both sides and putting all of the bad karma on one group or another is not likely to be constructive.
It is hard to be generous about other folks' points of view when you are cold and tired and basically stuck until the snowmobiler with the trailer comes back. And it isn't skiers caching gear and fuel at the trailhead and polluting Early Winters Creek.
well certainly parking issues can arise in every public parking lot or private commercial lot. If someone parks you in on public property, call the Sheriff, because it is illegal to park you in.
Point is, according to the owner and the organization who does the lot maintenance, ie the State of Washington, Methow Trails has "no preview" in controlling who parks in that public lot. Yet MT has placed bogus signs that creates conflict and in my case, has lead to me being harassed twice now by people who are being mislead by those bogus signs.
I dont use a trailer so the harassment doesn't even jive with the message on the bogus Methow Trails signs. But I am quite obviously a snowmobiler so those signs seem to be triggering some people's prejudice.
I do agree with you about the fuel spill problem, whether that occurs at Early Winters or the Silver Star Snowpark (which has been open around 6 weeks in its three years of operation).
Those folks however are parking on the HWY as close as they can to their stashed snowmobiles on the other side of the closed Road berm and are not using the State Lot. So a non sequitur in this discussion.
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Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
There are some other points of view. I got blocked in (along with a couple of other skiers) by a rig with a trailer in late December. There are clearly bad actors on both sides and putting all of the bad karma on one group or another is not likely to be constructive.
It is hard to be generous about other folks' points of view when you are cold and tired and basically stuck until the snowmobiler with the trailer comes back. And it isn't skiers caching gear and fuel at the trailhead and polluting Early Winters Creek.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
On Sunday I parked my snowmobile loaded truck in the State owned parking lot at Early Winters. I was having a good morning packing up my sled for three days of sking and two nights of camping near Washington Pass.
Then it happened. I was approached by a 70'S something man just stepping out of his $80,000 car. His stated desire was that I go park out on the state highway "where I belong" and not in the public parking lot.
A long time friend waiting for me chimed in telling the man in the $80,000 car, "he knows the rules" . This was referring to the fact that I have discussed this matter with the WSDOT and know that the State owns that parking lot, plows it, and that Methow Trails has, according to the WSDOT, "no purview" over how parking is dictated in that public parking lot.
I politely informed the man in the $80,000 car that "I will park where I want to park". He pointed to the 5 exclusionary signs that Methow Trails has nailed on the older growth trees that ring that public parking lot that are worded;
"Methow trails" - "no trailers -no overnight parking".
I didn't have trailer and only I knew I was parking overnight but I was quite obviously a snowmobiler. I explained to the man in the $80,000 car that the signs were "bogus". I think he knew that those signs were fake. The MT sign prop obviously suited his agenda and so he restated his position that I needed to get out of a cross country skier exclusive parking lot, as if somehow restating a concoction gave it truth.
That's when I said "go away, and told him that his behavior placed a "damper on my morning".
He shoved his hand towards me and said "lets shake" as if shaking my hand would somehow resolve his rude provocative behavior.
"Just go away" I said and off he went back to his $80,000 car.
I blame Methow Trails for trying to claim rights to a public parking lot that they have "no purview" to claim. They are the ones, despite their good work in the Valley, who are choosing to create user group conflict by continuing to displays their "bogus" signs".
I own a life time pass to the MT system and do not appreciate being on the receiving end of the conflict that MT creates.
bo·gus
/ˈbōɡəs/
not genuine or true; fake.
Then it happened. I was approached by a 70'S something man just stepping out of his $80,000 car. His stated desire was that I go park out on the state highway "where I belong" and not in the public parking lot.
A long time friend waiting for me chimed in telling the man in the $80,000 car, "he knows the rules" . This was referring to the fact that I have discussed this matter with the WSDOT and know that the State owns that parking lot, plows it, and that Methow Trails has, according to the WSDOT, "no purview" over how parking is dictated in that public parking lot.
I politely informed the man in the $80,000 car that "I will park where I want to park". He pointed to the 5 exclusionary signs that Methow Trails has nailed on the older growth trees that ring that public parking lot that are worded;
"Methow trails" - "no trailers -no overnight parking".
I didn't have trailer and only I knew I was parking overnight but I was quite obviously a snowmobiler. I explained to the man in the $80,000 car that the signs were "bogus". I think he knew that those signs were fake. The MT sign prop obviously suited his agenda and so he restated his position that I needed to get out of a cross country skier exclusive parking lot, as if somehow restating a concoction gave it truth.
That's when I said "go away, and told him that his behavior placed a "damper on my morning".
He shoved his hand towards me and said "lets shake" as if shaking my hand would somehow resolve his rude provocative behavior.
"Just go away" I said and off he went back to his $80,000 car.
I blame Methow Trails for trying to claim rights to a public parking lot that they have "no purview" to claim. They are the ones, despite their good work in the Valley, who are choosing to create user group conflict by continuing to displays their "bogus" signs".
I own a life time pass to the MT system and do not appreciate being on the receiving end of the conflict that MT creates.
bo·gus
/ˈbōɡəs/
not genuine or true; fake.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Welcome to the new Methow Valley where Methow Trails thinks all trails and parking areas belong to them and their folks and everyone else is basically trespassing and not welcome.
Sweetest sound in the winter vroom click click vroom
Snowmobile running g over cross country skis
Sweetest sound in the winter vroom click click vroom
Snowmobile running g over cross country skis
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters
Just spoke with the FS and was told.
The FS property does not share a boundary with that State owned parking lot.So the FS won't get involved with the sign issue even though MT holds a special use permit to operate on other parts of the trail system that are on Federal land.
The outhouse at that State parking lot was placed as part of the funding for the Silverstar snow Park.
There is some sort of understanding between MT and Okanogan County who has an understanding with the State to plow that parking lot on land owned by the State. That understsnding was not detailed and remains vague.
Bottom line is this.
From WSDOT;
"Methow Trails does not pay us to plow or have any purview over any WSDOT right of way. People can park there is they wish, but not camp/loiter."
The FS property does not share a boundary with that State owned parking lot.So the FS won't get involved with the sign issue even though MT holds a special use permit to operate on other parts of the trail system that are on Federal land.
The outhouse at that State parking lot was placed as part of the funding for the Silverstar snow Park.
There is some sort of understanding between MT and Okanogan County who has an understanding with the State to plow that parking lot on land owned by the State. That understsnding was not detailed and remains vague.
Bottom line is this.
From WSDOT;
"Methow Trails does not pay us to plow or have any purview over any WSDOT right of way. People can park there is they wish, but not camp/loiter."
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
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