Roe vs. Wade

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mister_coffee
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by mister_coffee »

Yeah, yeah, just move the goalposts and deny that there are any unintended consequences from the changes you have advocated. It is easy to be an extremist if you can just deny that anything bad will ever happen if you get your way.

Somebody who really believed in the righteousness of their cause would argue that letting innocent women suffer is worth it because you are saving so many babies. Of course because right-wingers are moral cowards they would never argue that...
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Rideback
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

I already posted this story once Ken, but unsurprisingly you never read it. So here's an example of a woman who was refused an abortion, pre Roe, when her fetus died inside her and so was forced to carry the dead baby. btw her name was Debbie Reynolds.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/debbie-r ... 16845cd420

And currently a Texas woman was forced to carry her dead fetus. Note the first line of the article, the same procedures are used to treat a miscarriage as an abortion

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2022/ ... nt-vpx.cnn
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

You’ve shown no law or ruling just a confused Dr and a desperately sensationalized story for political effects.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by mister_coffee »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... tus-stell/

I quote:
As The Post recently reported, doctors in multiple states say the standard of care for miscarriages, as well as ectopic pregnancies and other common complications, are being scrutinized, delayed, or even denied. In Texas — where Attorney General Ken Paxton (R) is suing the Biden administration over federal rules requiring abortions to be provided in medical emergencies to save the life of the mother — some doctors are reporting that pharmacists have begun questioning patients who they suspect could be using their miscarriage medications for abortions.
Just saying, but if you believe this (abortion bans) are righteous you should be a man and own any ugly consequences. Don't be a coward and pretend they don't happen.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

You are such a liar PAL, no one is forced to carry a dead baby! Such lies and mis-information being pushed so you all can keep killing babies at will!
PAL
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

Medival. This now involves the freedom of speech which last time I checked is in the Constitution.

"The memo further warned employees that they could not speak in support of abortion and should “proceed cautiously at any time that a discussion moves in the direction of reproductive health”, reported the Hill." (I still can't do this highlighted quote thing)

What country or countries does this remind you of?

Also, it will be interesting to see if the birth rate goes done. I think it is being found that women are becoming concerned about getting pregnant because they may not get the health care they need. Like, there are instances where she is being made to carry the fetus to term, if it is dead.
Or if in a miscarrage all of the tissue does not come out and has to be scraped out.
Be glad we are in Wa. state, but I feel for my sisters elsewhere.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by just-jim »

And now;

Staff and Faculty at the U of Idaho are cautioned about providing condoms to students, except ‘to prevent sexually transmitted infections’.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... th-control

“The memo laid out the university’s reproductive policies following the enactment of Idaho’s abortion law, which bans the procedure in nearly all cases.

The memo further warned employees that they could not speak in support of abortion and should “proceed cautiously at any time that a discussion moves in the direction of reproductive health”, reported the Hill.

The advice on birth control was included because of the law’s lack of clarity on “prevention of conception”, the university said, according to the Idaho Capital Sun.

Staff have been prohibited from recommending or referring abortion to a student. Employees have also been told not to issue emergency contraception – the so-called morning after pill, also known as Plan B – except in cases of rape.”

So, PREVENTING pregnancy is the same as abortion? What is next? Some ‘masturbation = murder’ scenario?
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by mister_coffee »

The OP is making the faulty assumption that the difference in treatment for a miscarriage and an abortion is generally distinguishable after the fact.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

Jingles, so you're now including the day after pill in your litany? What would you have said to the woman in the article I posted?
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Jingles »

mister_coffee wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:04 am
Jingles wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:13 am First off there is a major difference between miscarriages, ( spontaneous miscarriage) and chemically or surgically induced abortions and lumping both into a single classification is like classififying apples and tomatoes the same because they are both red.
Okay.

You are proposing murder charges against people involved in an abortion. Presumably you want there to be evidence of a murder before such charges are brought, and presumably you want those charges proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Okay. 24 hours after a miscarriage or abortion, how exactly does an investigator tell the difference between the two? Keep in mind that miscarriages are traumatic and unpleasant experiences for women and they aren't likely to voluntarily submit to a medical examination to search for evidence of a crime in their own body. Keep in mind also that doctors can lose their license and be sued into the ground if they give up patient medical records to a third party. Even if that party is law enforcement investigating a potential murder.
Very simple that even simple minded folks can understand
Chemical and surgical abortions be made criminal and prohibited except in the case of rape, incest or imminent threat to a morhers health.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by mister_coffee »

Jingles wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:13 am First off there is a major difference between miscarriages, ( spontaneous miscarriage) and chemically or surgically induced abortions and lumping both into a single classification is like classififying apples and tomatoes the same because they are both red.
Okay.

You are proposing murder charges against people involved in an abortion. Presumably you want there to be evidence of a murder before such charges are brought, and presumably you want those charges proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Okay. 24 hours after a miscarriage or abortion, how exactly does an investigator tell the difference between the two? Keep in mind that miscarriages are traumatic and unpleasant experiences for women and they aren't likely to voluntarily submit to a medical examination to search for evidence of a crime in their own body. Keep in mind also that doctors can lose their license and be sued into the ground if they give up patient medical records to a third party. Even if that party is law enforcement investigating a potential murder.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

But not all apples are red and not all tomatoes are red. The point is being made that the anti-abortion people are the ones lumping it all together.
Each individual woman may have medical problems and again, it is no one else's business.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by pasayten »

just-jim wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:50 pm It does look like women are being treated like farm animals - allowed only those medicines and procedures deemed worthy by a bunch of religious, myopic, misanthropic, old white men.
Yes... I have seen those views on this BB... by old and younger men...
pasayten
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Jingles
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Jingles »

First off there is a major difference between miscarriages, ( spontaneous miscarriage) and chemically or surgically induced abortions and lumping both into a single classification is like classififying apples and tomatoes the same because they are both red.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by just-jim »

Yes, indeed. The law of un-intended consequences……

Now in Ariz and elsewhere, women of children bearing age are being denied access to other, essential Rx drugs. Drugs like methotrexate - commonly used in treating arthritis and other conditions - which ‘might be‘ used in an abortion
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... edications

It does look like women are being treated like farm animals - allowed only those medicines and procedures deemed worthy by a bunch of religious, myopic, misanthropic, old white men.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

Yes, it was Arizona with the Draconian law. Not a question of Federalism and what I agree with. It's the state of Wa. that won't enforce or prosecute.
Ken=non-sensical spewing. Damn fool.
Look to Iran to see what is happening. Women are rising up, dying but they do not want to take repression anymore. Could it be the powers that be are scared? They should be.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

A woman's story facing the new Arizona abortion bans

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/26/us/arizo ... index.html
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by mister_coffee »

I'm going to get specific.

There are approximately 4.4 million pregnancies every year in the United States. Somewhere between 900,000 and 1 million end in a miscarriage (it is argued that a great many more miscarriages occur early in pregnancy when most women are not yet aware they are pregnant, but we'll leave those out for now).

So I have some specific questions for the forced birth people:
  • Are you seriously proposing that we investigate one million miscarriages every year?
  • If not, which ones are you going to investigate and on what criteria?
  • How much is this going to cost?
  • How will you tell the difference between emergency medical treatment for a miscarriage and an abortion?
  • How does an investigation work with doctor-patient confidentiality? Will an investigator have to go to court and get a court order before they can speak to the doctor or doctors?
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

Ken, it occurs to me that you never seem to finish a sentence, much less turn a page. To help you out, here's a link to discuss Federalism

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/federal ... %20concern.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

So Federalism is only when you agree with it? Such hypocrites! mister coffee are you trans? Damn fool
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

Great points David. If there is a federal ban, Wa. state will not enforce it.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by mister_coffee »

Methinks that people who don't own and operate a uterus should be very careful when engaging in discussions on this topic. They run the risk of looking like damned fools.

So, your proposition is that doctors and pregnant women who terminate their pregnancies should be prosecuted for murder?

Let us imagine that a women is pregnant and does not yet know it. She goes mountain biking and gets in a modestly serious crash which causes a miscarriage. She rightly seeks emergency medical treatment for that miscarriage.

Did she commit a crime? Did the doctors that treated her condition commit a crime? If she committed a crime, what crime was that exactly? Who is going to investigate it? I'm going to make this complicated and point out that proper medical treatment for a miscarriage is going to look a heck of a lot like an abortion.

To go further, twenty to thirty percent of pregnancies end in a miscarriage. Are you going to criminally investigate all of them? Who exactly is going to do that investigating and who is going to pay for it? And how, in general, are you going to tell the difference between proper medical treatment for a miscarriage and an abortion? Because from where I sit and what I read you can't.

Also, a note to Republicans: arguing that half of your voters have the rights of barnyard animals isn't likely to be a winning strategy at the ballot box. Let me know how that works out for you.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

And one state, is it our neighboring Idaho? wants no abortions no matter what, unless the mother's life is in danger. No abortion for rape or incest. Those people that don't want to allow that are sicko and twisted. How can they think a woman would want to bear her rapists or her father or brothers baby? No, it's about repression and control
It is no ones business what goes on between a woman and her provider. People scream about too much government interference and I sure have to agree with that when it comes to abortion. Majority will speak, you'll see.
We think nothing of incarcerating children and separating them from their parents at the border, 2,3,4,5 year olds and then not being able to link them up with their parents. These children are traumatized for a long time. And people will argue that the parents shouldn't have brought them along and yes, it would be the ideal, leaving them behind to face being killed. But the point here is, no one gives a f about these children except Human Services and they were not ready for the Zero Tolerance program. I am reading about this mess in the Atlantic Monthly.
So I digress. But all I am saying to those who value children so much, you better look into this.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

Jingles, read this thread to get your answers.
Also, there is a term for femals who are not allowed to control their own bodies, 'Livestock'.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Jingles »

Question for the pro abortionists with a little history thrown in. It seems as though people forget that not to long ago if a person killed a pregnant woman the killer would be charged with 2 murders 1 count for the pregnant woman and 1 count for the unborn baby regardless of gestation period.
Would the pro abortionist be willing to compromise and agree that if a woman has an abortion after a heartbeat is detected she and the abortion provider should be charged with murder? Or is that outside the realm of possibility that for other than rape, incest, or imminent health threat to the mother abortions be prohibited? Also that simply having an abortion because the woman had sex got pregnant and wants an abortion because she does not want to have a child is wtong
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