What are we doing?

dorankj
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by dorankj »

It’s pretty simple, you don’t have constitutional protection for any of those other things! “Shall not be infringed” is a pretty clear statement of how much you can ‘control’ people through guns. Every despot in history removed the guns to exert control over the population and fulfill their heinous desires.
PAL
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by PAL »

Simple solution. Make assualt rifles illegal. No ban. Illegal. What is the reason for those guns? Hunters don't use them. They are for killing people. Remember the kid who got to kill people with his and got away with it?
What about those that already have them? If they are used, and observed, turn 'em in, take away the killing machine.
Oh yeah, this is considered radical. But it would cut down on children being killed and others too.
The NRA has strayed so far from their origins. They were not this radicalized or political.
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by Rideback »

I've never distilled the Republican obsession with guns down to this level, but now I can't see it any other way.
Author Steve M, Josh Marshall, from Crooks & Liars

'Josh Marshall wrote this a few hours after the Uvalde shooting, and, regrettably, he's right:

The inability of the U.S. to do literally anything about the scourge of mass shootings is itself one of their greatest draws, the magnetic heart of their attraction. Mass shootings are fundamentally about losers, rage and the draw of total power. For a few minutes a school shooter holds the power of life and death. That power speaks for itself. But that’s only part of it. Nothing reinforces the power of the gun like the way a whole country remains in thrall to them. The gun — and all the fetishes and cultural baggage surrounding them — is the one totally unassailable, unchallengeable thing in American society.

It doesn’t matter how many kids get shot or what new turn of perversion is added to the stale choreography of the latest mass school shooting: Literally nothing happens. That is power.

... That power is so total it’s no surprise that angry losers flock to become part of it.

Right -- given the way our politics are structured, it's impossible to enact any reforms that could prevent the next massacre, so every potential mass murderer knows he really will leave us flailing and powerless.

But I don't think mass murderers are the only ones who revel in that sense of absolute power. Look at the GOP:

In Alabama, Gov. Kay Ivey unpacked lipstick, an iPhone and something else from her purse in one campaign advertisement — “a little Smith & Wesson .38,” she said....

In Nevada, an ad for former Senator Dean Heller, now a Republican candidate for governor, bragged about his wife’s shooting skills. And in North Carolina, a spot for Representative Ted Budd, a Republican Senate candidate, boasted that he owned a gun range.

... more than 100 television ads from Republican candidates and supportive groups have used guns as talking points or visual motifs this year.


... Republican primary candidates are often competing to show how conservative they are in a polarized landscape ever more defined by white-hot cultural battles. And guns are an easy visual shorthand.

“You basically have Republican primary candidates trying to explain to Republican primary voters that they are going to be on their side when it comes to the cultural cold civil war that’s being fought right now,” said Robert Blizzard, a Republican strategist.

It's a signal to fellow Republicans, but it's also a way of taunting liberals -- Yeah? What are you gonna do about it? The ad shown above, from Brian Kemp's previous gubernatorial campaign, is a good example. It's just a series of taunts, on guns and other issues.

The message is: Liberals think they run the country, but they can't stop me. And on guns, at least, we can't. On several other issues as well, of course -- abortion, taxes, the minimum wage, voting rights....

The ability to leave large groups of people powerless is intoxicating -- for mass shooters and Republicans.
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mister_coffee
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by mister_coffee »

Those weren't police officers. That was a flock of broiler hens dressed up in police and pseudo-military gear.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by realoldtimer »

Lots of questions coming up. Lots of facts about handling and timing.

"Local police blocked tactical units from engaging Robb Elementary School shooter for an hour: report"
https://www.alternet.org/2022/05/local- ... cal-units/

We have adult children that work at education facilities in Washington state and Colorado. They all have gone through, including training on concealed carry and 'taking out the active shooter.' They have told me they are armed at work always.

I would have thought especially in Texas that similar training is going on.

Seems like once again a local LE agency was not really prepared to deal with the situation -- no training? OR Just unprepared to go 'in harm's way.'
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by Rideback »

'All incidents of gun violence have one -- and only one -- thing in common.
It's not absence of God in the schools
It's not BLM or Antifa
It's not mental illness
It's not wokeness or liberalism or communism or socialism or any other ism
It's not LGBT people
It's not lack of armed "good guys"
It's not illegal drugs or vaccines or Ritalin
It's not video games or movies or rap music or Rock & Roll
It's not Hunter Biden's Laptop
It's not too many doors, or whatever Ted Cruz and the NRA are blaming it on today
It's not a fraud perpetuated by "crisis actors"
It's not illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants or Middle Eastern terrorists
It's not whatever ridiculous bull*** pseudo-psychological mumbo-jumbo the Fox News talking heads are manufacturing right now
There is only one common denominator: GUNS
Until you deal with THAT, nothing else will make any difference. (Jim Wright)
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by Rideback »

And in Abbott's press conference he focused on the State resources that the victims could avail themselves of. Despite saying on Wed that the shooter had no known mental health issues, he focused on that today...and as the fact checkers point out Texas ranks #50 in access to mental health resources and just this April, as in a month ago, he cut over $200 million from the State's budget for mental health.
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by realoldtimer »

Incredible!

"Children were inside the classroom with the gunman for 35 minutes, making 911 calls."
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Re: What are we doing?

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From CNN:

'While a gunman slaughtered children inside locked adjoining classrooms in a Texas elementary school, a group of 19 law enforcement officers stood in a hallway outside and took no action as they waited for more equipment, a state law enforcement official said Friday.

"The on-scene commander at that time believed that it had transitioned from an active shooter to a barricaded subject," Texas Department of Public Safety Col. Steven McCraw said.

"From the benefit of hindsight where I'm sitting now, of course it was not the right decision. It was the wrong decision. There's no excuse for that."

The decision explains the lengthy wait between when officers first arrived to the school at 11:44 a.m. and when the gunman was finally shot at 12:50 p.m. The tactical team ultimately entered the locked classroom to confront the gunman using keys from a janitor, he said.
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by Rideback »

A branch of the same tree. The far Right media has created its own version of the shooting, that it was done by a transgender woman

https://crooksandliars.com/2022/05/righ ... ransgender
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by Rideback »

Definition of 'assault weapon'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by mister_coffee »

Just to be a firearms geek for a moment.

Any weapon legally sold to civilians in this country is going to be semi-automatic, which means that you only get one bullet for each time you pull the trigger. Interestingly, the US military has found that full automatic isn't actually very useful, as the kick from the rifle leads to everyone firing high and not servicing targets.

I find it interesting that there is no objection to a limit on magazine sizes for hunting weapons, but apparently when you plan on hunting children limiting magazine sizes is somehow a violation of rights.

Image

I also find it interesting that slam firing a pump action shotgun is not considered an automatic weapon, even though you can deliver more than one cartridge with one pull of the trigger.

My own opinion is that most civilians and many professionals wildly overrate their firearms skills. Without adequate training you are a liability in a firefight and more of a danger to yourself than anyone else. So 99 percent of the time when someone has a weapon for "personal protection" that is a person you want to be far away from in any crisis.

The next generation of American military rifles will have both larger rounds and smaller magazines.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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pasayten
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by pasayten »

One trigger pull." Does that mean what I think it means? In that the trigger would have to be pulled each time? Whereas an assault rifle is the trigger just held down? Can you educate me without calling me an idiot, like you did Mickey?
The AR-15's currently on the market are one trigger pull per shot... They are semi-automatic and not automatic like a machine gun. You can shoot very many rounds in quick seccession, but it is not automatic... There were/are some illegal "bump stocks" on the market that aided the rapid shooting of a semi-automatic...
Bump stocks or bump fire stocks are gun stocks that can be used to assist in bump firing. Bump firing is the act of using the recoil of a semi-automatic firearm to fire ammunition cartridges in rapid succession.

The legality of bump stocks in the United States came under question[1][2][3] following the 2017 Las Vegas shooting, which left 60 civilians dead and an additional 867 injured;[4][5][6] the gunman was found to have fitted them to his weapons.[7] Several states passed legislation restricting ownership of bump stocks following this shooting and the one at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School months later. The U.S. Justice Department banned them at the federal level in December 2018.
The state of Washington has a law banning the purchase of large round "clips" to hold ammunition starting July 1st, but does not address those currently held by citizens.

It should also be noted that most ammuntion for AR-15 style guns are "full jacketed" and made to pass thru human targets as a result of "world standards" to make less damaging as opposed to mushrooming/expanding hunting rounds designed to damage/kill prey.


All in all, I believe the Methow Valley is well armed, but knowledgable and sensible in firearm use. That does not prevent an "outsider" to come and raise havoc, but I believe law enforcement would have plenty of help from citizens to address the situation. Just my opinion... :-)
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mister_coffee
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by mister_coffee »

As for action items, I would suggest a letter, signed by as many concerned citizens as possible. That letter should have concrete questions and concrete action items for the recipients. And there should be a clearly communicated expectation that there should be a prompt and transparent public response to that letter.

Good places to send that letter:

1. The school superintendent and school board.
2. Winthrop Marshal
3. Okanogan County Sheriff
4. Methow Valley News

As for arming teachers, at least at Uvalde the teachers showed far more courage than the law enforcement officers did. Although to be fair to the teachers, it would hardly be possible to be less courageous than the police were.
Last edited by mister_coffee on Fri May 27, 2022 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by PAL »

"One trigger pull." Does that mean what I think it means? In that the trigger would have to be pulled each time? Whereas an assault rifle is the trigger just held down? Can you educate me without calling me an idiot, like you did Mickey?
Now Ken, I admit I don't know that much about guns, only from what I have read. I still don't think the teacher would have much of a chance.
Escape would be the best way, but that doesn't seem to happen in these situations. And the mind set for them, is they sure don't expect anything like that to happen in their school. But it is being shown it can happen anywhere, anytime. It would be hard to be on guard and still teach school.
Monies for extra security guards would be a possible solution.
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dorankj
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by dorankj »

Both semi-auto (one trigger pull per round) pistol is more concealable and faster to swing, what exactly is so wrong with that idea? I don’t think you know much about weaponry, there is no such thing as an “assault weapon” unless you assault someone and then every weapon is one.
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Re: What are we doing?

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According to the book, "Gunfight", gun sales go up whenever an incident like this happens. It is a very lucrative business.

That's what I was thinking Rideback. How can a teacher with a lousy pistol go up against an assault rifle? Heck, give the teacher some real ammo to match that shooter, if you're going to arm them. Match the firepower.(I am against teachers having to have weapons, but do it right, huh)

Ken, you are certainly right about law enforcement here, not being able to get to the school in time. So I would indeed think our citizenry would respond, but hopefully not go in half cocked. The citizens responding should know tactical response and be organized. This is an unfortunate situation, but is a reality in our Valley. I do suppose that if I had a kid in that situation, I would be there in a minute.
But the best solution, in that we have a smaller school system would be to have one entrance in.
I do hope the school system has thought of these types of situations and as David suggests, has a plan of action.
Last edited by PAL on Fri May 27, 2022 7:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by Rideback »

Greg Abbott's idea to arm teachers would be laughable if it weren't so serious. He wants to hand every teacher a pistol so they can take out a guy with an assault weapon? Really?
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by dorankj »

You obviously have no idea how much of the time there is no cop on duty anywhere in this valley, so if you think some stupid article is going to change my stance for personal self protection and my family’s protection you really are an over educated idiot. If the same situation in Texas happened here, I imagine there will be many of us ready to use any necessary force to protect our kids no matter how far out law enforcement is.
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by dorankj »

I thought “shall not be infringed” was pretty clear. These cowards always pick vulnerable places I.e. “gun free zones”, fear is the only real deterrent.
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by PAL »

David, your last 2 responses are so right on. Who do we know that could ask the school and law enforcement about this? This is super important, even in our small Valley.
Where to start? Contact law enforcement? Contact the school board?
And it doesn't have to be confrontational. It needs to be talked about. Who are some parents that come to mind?
Let's all go over our list of people we know and see if someone in that group can start a meeting, discussion.
Budrow is approachable. I've talked to him on the phone regarding another issue a couple of years ago. He welcomed me talking to him.
Proactive.
Guns in schools-No. Increased security-yes.
2A is not going away Ken. But it could be adjusted to fit the times.
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dorankj
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by dorankj »

Maybe THAT is why 2A is so important to us, so WE can take care of it when needed!
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mister_coffee
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by mister_coffee »

So let me get this straight: we won't trust teachers to teach our students and recommend books for them to read, but we will trust them with GUNS?
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: What are we doing?

Post by mister_coffee »

Based on some of the news reports coming out (and I can hardly believe them) the law enforcement response in this event was at best grossly inadequate.

We still can't put together an accurate timeline, but apparently law enforcement stood around with their hands down their pants and harassed bystanders, including frantic parents, for almost an hour before taking the shooter down, which was apparently done by a Border Patrol tactical team which arrived about forty minutes after the mayhem started. Local police and county sheriffs basically established a perimeter and pepper-sprayed concerned parents.

Reading between the lines some more, it sounds like there wasn't a clear command structure in place and nobody was in charge.

This raises some practical questions for our own community. If you are a concerned parent or citizen this is a case where you should get in the face of local law enforcement, school administrators, and elected officials:

1. Does the Winthrop Marshal have copies of the master keys to the school buildings? If not why not?
2. Does an officer do a walkthrough of the schools, say once per month, to both confirm that those master keys still work and are still there and to keep themselves familiar with the ground in an emergency? If not why not?
3. Is there an incident command structure in place for an event like this? If not why not?
4. Is there a crisis plan in place and a reunification site arranged for an event like this? If not why not?
5. Are exercises and tests conducted on a regular basis to prepare for such a contingency? If not why not?

As for the last point, if we are going to have the kids do active shooter drills, it is reasonable to expect that law enforcement, from the Marshal to County Sheriffs, to the State Patrol, USFS, and Border Patrol, ought to exercise for this contingency too. And school administrators and local government should do sand-table exercises on emergencies like this a couple of times per year.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: What are we doing?

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Posted by David Bonn.. I inadvertently deleted it...

I think throwing up our hands and giving up isn't going to work. And honestly I feel some pressure to come up with better, or at least less awful, ideas because if we just leave this to fester the final results aren't likely to be ones we could live with.

So we need to think outside the box, and not just keep trying to do what hasn't worked for decades and probably can't work in the near term.

I think background checks for firearm purchases are a great idea. Interestingly, I see no reason the government has to run that program. Court records in 13 states (including Washington) are freely (or at a nominal fee) available for non-commercial purposes. So in theory you could set up your own background check system as a non-profit, and use a combination of enlightened self-interest and public pressure to encourage gun sellers to use that system. You wouldn't catch all of them but I'd also point out that knowing what gun store an upset or disturbed young man might go to when he wants to be famous would put you ahead of the game right there.

To go a little bit more dystopian, modern big data analysis can produce magical and disturbing results. Using information about your google search history, what products you browsed on Amazon, and your activities on the Book of Faces you can glean a lot about what someone is up to. You can with pretty high reliability tell if someone is planning to get married, get divorced, cheating on their spouse, quitting their job, and the like. It is reasonable to infer that you could also tell if someone were at high risk to go shoot a bunch of random people as well. This could plausibly all be done by non-governmental actors. Depending on the severity of the indicators, that third party actor might notify the local police, social services, or friends and family members.
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