When does life begin
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Re: When does life begin
Good lord, a Rep CongressMAN actually posited this in questioning:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/morning-m ... orn-babies
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/morning-m ... orn-babies
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Re: When does life begin
Congresswoman's response in a hearing on abortion:
https://crooksandliars.com/2022/05/lucy ... age-prison
https://crooksandliars.com/2022/05/lucy ... age-prison
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Re: When does life begin
Projection, just stop.
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Re: When does life begin
Returning the decision to the states...translates into an end of a Constitutional right. 26 states have already set in play the laws that will deny ALL access to women to abortions. They are doing this without the vote of their constituents. They have denied Medicaid expansion to care for for women's health.
What part of that are you in agreement with?
What part of that are you in agreement with?
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Re: When does life begin
Mirror.
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Re: When does life begin
You’re babbling Mickey, might be time to return to the magic kingdom.
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Re: When does life begin
I thought thought the ‘vax’ was for my protection and I did wear masks, don’t accuse me of things you know nothing of!
Women have a constitutional ‘right’ to kill their children? Where is that stated? All the way until the child is 18? Do enlighten us all of these ‘rights’!
Women have a constitutional ‘right’ to kill their children? Where is that stated? All the way until the child is 18? Do enlighten us all of these ‘rights’!
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Re: When does life begin
No, you guys “entirely miss the point”, government isn’t “controlling female bodies”, point of fact SCOTUS is realizing their one size fits all ‘right’ to abortion doesn’t work so they are proposing returning this complex issue to states, they aren’t outlawing abortion what so ever! However, when it comes to what humans may be killed and/or receive constitutional protection that IS in SCOTUS’s purview.
You must be apoplectic about Speaker Nan, she uses the “for the children” line regularly to justify her nonsense!
If “viability” is our only measurement couldn’t we kill off all the geriatrics who need full-time care? Didn’t think so.
You must be apoplectic about Speaker Nan, she uses the “for the children” line regularly to justify her nonsense!
If “viability” is our only measurement couldn’t we kill off all the geriatrics who need full-time care? Didn’t think so.
- mister_coffee
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Re: When does life begin
So if government control of everything is generally bad, why is government control of female reproduction okay? And you are in remarkably violent
agreement on why letting government run amok and control female bodies is a horrible idea.
And before you say, "because of the children" you can justify almost anything by arguing you are protecting children. It is one of the last refuges of knaves, scoundrels, and poltroons in a debate.
Seriously, I don't think this is that hard. I'd say that before the conceptus/fetus is viable it is a no-brainer that a potential mother's choice wins. Beyond that it gets more complicated, but in general I'd say if the life or health of the mother is threatened it is still a no-brainer, but how we interpret "life or health of the mother" should be interpreted less generously as the pregnancy progresses.
agreement on why letting government run amok and control female bodies is a horrible idea.
And before you say, "because of the children" you can justify almost anything by arguing you are protecting children. It is one of the last refuges of knaves, scoundrels, and poltroons in a debate.
Seriously, I don't think this is that hard. I'd say that before the conceptus/fetus is viable it is a no-brainer that a potential mother's choice wins. Beyond that it gets more complicated, but in general I'd say if the life or health of the mother is threatened it is still a no-brainer, but how we interpret "life or health of the mother" should be interpreted less generously as the pregnancy progresses.
David Bonn
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Re: When does life begin
You entirely miss the point, which is not surprising when you also comment that no one gets denied care.
The majority of women who get abortions live below the poverty line. That same poverty line limits their abilities to get medical care. Medicaid is often not an option for them, just like using an emergency room center is not equal to having regular doctor's care. Planned Parenthood and other women's care clinics have been closed down in multiple states or so severely restricted that there are few left to serve women's care.
Planned Parenthood is not nor has it ever restricted its services solely to abortion. They offer full spectrum women's care from birth control through the gamut...not something an emergency room is built to conduct...and since they are privately funded (look at the Hyde Amendment) that accepts no govt subsidies, they do a whole lot of heavy lifting. For the 12 year old girls who were raped or subjects of incest and find themselves without resources they have been a lifeline.
For a woman under the poverty line who does not have a car, has children at home to tend to, has a low paying job that will not give her a couple of days paid leave so that she can travel the hundreds of miles to get care and cannot afford the $ to find a hotel to stay over at, there are great hurdles before her. This is a world of challenges much less impossibilities that women are facing every day and they are factors in the abortion discussion. https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org ... -amendment
The majority of women who get abortions live below the poverty line. That same poverty line limits their abilities to get medical care. Medicaid is often not an option for them, just like using an emergency room center is not equal to having regular doctor's care. Planned Parenthood and other women's care clinics have been closed down in multiple states or so severely restricted that there are few left to serve women's care.
Planned Parenthood is not nor has it ever restricted its services solely to abortion. They offer full spectrum women's care from birth control through the gamut...not something an emergency room is built to conduct...and since they are privately funded (look at the Hyde Amendment) that accepts no govt subsidies, they do a whole lot of heavy lifting. For the 12 year old girls who were raped or subjects of incest and find themselves without resources they have been a lifeline.
For a woman under the poverty line who does not have a car, has children at home to tend to, has a low paying job that will not give her a couple of days paid leave so that she can travel the hundreds of miles to get care and cannot afford the $ to find a hotel to stay over at, there are great hurdles before her. This is a world of challenges much less impossibilities that women are facing every day and they are factors in the abortion discussion. https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org ... -amendment
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Re: When does life begin
Yes, government control of everyone and everything! Genius, because government does such a good job managing complex issues and never imposes one size fits all draconian craziness. I’ll take personal freedom BUT of course personal responsibility is required too.
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Re: When does life begin
A friend of mind commented on another thread with worthwhile points:
'I think we would be looking at a different debate if the proposed change in law was also accompanied by a GREAT EMBRACE across society for the complex reality of bringing another child into the world, if this intent to overturn Roe v. Wade was accompanied by:
- universal health care (cradle to grave)
- extended, paid (full-time salary) maternity leave of a minimum of 1 year with a guarantee a woman could get her job back at the same level of advancement
- low-cost, high quality government subsidized daycare, starting at age 2
- universal public full-day pre-school, starting at age 3
- college tuition of at least 2 years picked up by society as a whole
I am not saying that such an environment would or should work like a bartering in this debate, i.e. "you will be getting lots of help, lots of support, therefore no need to worry about having a baby, so just give up your right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy".
However, IF all of this were in place, I do think that a sizable number of women might go ahead with unexpected pregnancies.
And I have seen, but rarely, a position expressed by some on the "pro-life" side that is called "whole life". As I understand it, that includes benefits such as I list above.
In countries where such a solid, universal social safety net exists for women and their children, you do find many more single mothers. From my own experience, I'd cite both Sweden and Quebec, where women often choose not to marry, but do also often go ahead with unplanned pregnancies (though abortion is legal in both areas). There is also little societal stigma for a woman who makes these choices, and they lose little ground economically.
Now THAT environment might be common ground. But in my own experience on social media (in conversations with "pro-choice" Americans), this kind of "whole life" support is practically laughed at, denigrated, not taken at all seriously.
If women fight ferociously against "pro-life" arguments, what lies under much of that ferocity is the stark and clear EXPERIENCED reality of knowing the supposed "pro-life" movement is quite willing to put 100% of the burden on HER and on HER ONLY.
'I think we would be looking at a different debate if the proposed change in law was also accompanied by a GREAT EMBRACE across society for the complex reality of bringing another child into the world, if this intent to overturn Roe v. Wade was accompanied by:
- universal health care (cradle to grave)
- extended, paid (full-time salary) maternity leave of a minimum of 1 year with a guarantee a woman could get her job back at the same level of advancement
- low-cost, high quality government subsidized daycare, starting at age 2
- universal public full-day pre-school, starting at age 3
- college tuition of at least 2 years picked up by society as a whole
I am not saying that such an environment would or should work like a bartering in this debate, i.e. "you will be getting lots of help, lots of support, therefore no need to worry about having a baby, so just give up your right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy".
However, IF all of this were in place, I do think that a sizable number of women might go ahead with unexpected pregnancies.
And I have seen, but rarely, a position expressed by some on the "pro-life" side that is called "whole life". As I understand it, that includes benefits such as I list above.
In countries where such a solid, universal social safety net exists for women and their children, you do find many more single mothers. From my own experience, I'd cite both Sweden and Quebec, where women often choose not to marry, but do also often go ahead with unplanned pregnancies (though abortion is legal in both areas). There is also little societal stigma for a woman who makes these choices, and they lose little ground economically.
Now THAT environment might be common ground. But in my own experience on social media (in conversations with "pro-choice" Americans), this kind of "whole life" support is practically laughed at, denigrated, not taken at all seriously.
If women fight ferociously against "pro-life" arguments, what lies under much of that ferocity is the stark and clear EXPERIENCED reality of knowing the supposed "pro-life" movement is quite willing to put 100% of the burden on HER and on HER ONLY.
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Re: When does life begin
No one is NOT provided care! I have never had a patient who died because this country wouldn’t provide care, help and food. That is ridiculous.
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Re: When does life begin
I doubt anyone, including mothers that are having abortions, would argue with you that they are not in favor of saving the life of both the mothers and babies. But circumstances are overwhelming sometimes and just don't favor a woman carrying to term a fetus. A govt that is allowed to override the decision of a woman and her doctor to get healthcare to save her own life means we all lose the right to life. A govt that tells a woman she must carry a baby to term without offering any financial aid, without necessary healthcare and more is a lopsided and cruel predicament that should not be tolerated by anyone. Where's the justice, where's the balance or it that care just something that shall remain unspoken of?
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Re: When does life begin
Actually, at the end of the day I’m advocating for lives to be saved (mother and child) and you all are making up nonsense and calling people names! Pretending your smart while killing things is nothing to be proud of, but believe what you will.
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Re: When does life begin
Of course if we put everything on pause while we wait for definitive answers there's an element of laziness creeping into our abilities to exercise our intellectual capacities. Just as in all scientific theories and processes, the element of growth of a theory is an open door as more data, observations and technology are put on the table.
In the meantime, we work with what we have and acknowledge that it's important to accommodate the civil rights aspect of the questions.
In the meantime, we work with what we have and acknowledge that it's important to accommodate the civil rights aspect of the questions.
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- mister_coffee
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Re: When does life begin
Like all philosophical discussions, this one involves great clouds of fog, great blasts of hot air, and poorly considered terminology.
Actually defining "life" is not trivial. Certain seeds can be dormant for many years (in one known case over 1300 years). Are those seeds "alive"?
The trivial answer to the question "When does life begin?" is "Life began over 4 billion years ago and has never really stopped."
Individual cells are also alive. Obviously unfertilized human eggs and sperm are alive.
More precise questions include: (1) when does a conceptus (a fertilized egg) become a human? and (2) what rights do we grant a conceptus and unborn human?
Those aren't simple questions, and it is unlikely that one-sized-fits-all answers on either side of the discussion are going to produce results that are tolerable to anyone.
Actually defining "life" is not trivial. Certain seeds can be dormant for many years (in one known case over 1300 years). Are those seeds "alive"?
The trivial answer to the question "When does life begin?" is "Life began over 4 billion years ago and has never really stopped."
Individual cells are also alive. Obviously unfertilized human eggs and sperm are alive.
More precise questions include: (1) when does a conceptus (a fertilized egg) become a human? and (2) what rights do we grant a conceptus and unborn human?
Those aren't simple questions, and it is unlikely that one-sized-fits-all answers on either side of the discussion are going to produce results that are tolerable to anyone.
David Bonn
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Re: When does life begin
You all are entitled to your opinion as am I but you might not get your way (and you very well may be incorrect and shouldn’t get your way). I imagine your wailing and gnashing of teeth will continue on more than this issue!
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Re: When does life begin
Good posts and information, thanks Mickey & PAL.
And yes, yesterday's march was eye opening, full of good energy and the promise of continuing support!
And yes, yesterday's march was eye opening, full of good energy and the promise of continuing support!
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Re: When does life begin
Ask any woman, young or old, if she has ever felt "pressured" to have sex. I bet almost everyone of them would say yes. Men can be quite relentless and persuasive in their quest. Their urge is strong. These are not rapes, per se, but in the heat of passion, women give in or are talked into it. Or they say no, but their urges overtake them too, so then they may go against their own judgement.
Thanks for posting about the violence and what many women face.
Good points about what the Constitution doesn't mention.
Yesterday's March was well attended. It was mentioned that women don't usually go casually into this decision about her body.
Yeah, guess what, "just because responsibility prior to conception wasn’t exercised" , condoms break, IUD's can fail, methods can fail which can result in an unplanned pregnancy.
And as we know, birth control is left largly up to women.
Thanks for posting about the violence and what many women face.
Good points about what the Constitution doesn't mention.
Yesterday's March was well attended. It was mentioned that women don't usually go casually into this decision about her body.
Yeah, guess what, "just because responsibility prior to conception wasn’t exercised" , condoms break, IUD's can fail, methods can fail which can result in an unplanned pregnancy.
And as we know, birth control is left largly up to women.
Pearl Cherrington
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Re: When does life begin
Yes, you are constantly referring to it as addressing an 'inconvenience', look at your posts.
The canard that abortion is not mentioned in the Constitution is laughable. The Constitution doesn't mention marriage, voting rights for women, minorities (including Native Americans), civil rights or getting a driver's license either.
You are also misinterpreting the conversations here and keep pulling out the victim card. No one here has said that you are a bad person, but most are saying that your arguments have flaws. There's a difference.
The canard that abortion is not mentioned in the Constitution is laughable. The Constitution doesn't mention marriage, voting rights for women, minorities (including Native Americans), civil rights or getting a driver's license either.
You are also misinterpreting the conversations here and keep pulling out the victim card. No one here has said that you are a bad person, but most are saying that your arguments have flaws. There's a difference.
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Re: When does life begin
Point of fact, I did not say that, you did. You are desperate to say I’m the monster but it’s your position that is barbaric. No euphemism or pretend logic or odd twisting of definition will change that. There is entirely too many babies killed just because responsibility prior to conception wasn’t exercised and there is actually no “right” to abortion in the constitution. The ‘right to privacy’ doesn’t get there otherwise I could kill my child “privately” in my house any time and tell everyone to leave me alone. Roe was wrongly decided on faulty reasoning (just like Dred Scott) and needs to be overturned federally and returned to the states. I’m sure you’ll be able to kill all the babies you want here in Washington, maybe more!
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Re: When does life begin
And there's your use of the word 'convenience' again. By using it your objective is to lump all abortions together with no recognition of differing circumstances. The new states' laws being enacted and indeed the Alito draft does the same thing, it's saying ALL abortions, no exceptions including rape, incest or the life of the mother. No matter how many times you repeat 'inconvenience' it will never mean that all abortions fall into that category.
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