Kicked Off the Methownet BB

[Fun CH]

Keep working on it, Chris.
To correct your pretty serious allegation

what "pretty serious allegation"?

You said what you said and I quoted you and offered a counter point in a civil manor.

Quote: "Any idea why someone would do that?"

Yes, to get a potentially harmful dog off the streets. You and I possibly have a different opinion on what our civic duty requires.

[Fun CH]

I totally agree with you on the tree cutting incident. I seem to remember some reporting in the paper. So the pilot did not reveal the other sites? Why didn't he. You said he took the fall. Did someone threaten him?

no, NCH did not report additional unauthorized cut sites during the law enforcement investigation of the first unauthorized and illegal cutting site. During the late summer of 2012, the same year as the initial cut site was discovered, the public discovered other white bark pine trees destroyed at other unauthorised heli- Landing sites.

I asked that those sites be investigated by law enforcement just the same as the first discovered site was where the pilot received a warning ticket.

I fully expected that investigation to happen and more tickets issued for those responsible.

The FS chose to handle the new cut sites solely as a permit violation issue. The NCH permit was placed on probation for five years as a result. They also had to pay close to $6,000 in restitution cost to restore the area. The Forest Service placed the value of old growth whitebark pine trees at $100, which is the same cost as a nursery pine tree.

When asked who did the cutting at those new sites, the FS repeatedly told us that the owners were taking responsibility for the actions of pilot, but would not disclose who did the cutting.

That's why I say the pilot took the fall. From what I witnessed, three of the cut sites that were discovered did not have a spot capable of Landing a helicopter prior to the cuts.

Did the pilot leave a multi million-dollar machine on a narrow high mountain Ridge while he snow shoed or skied a half mile away to do the cutting? Seems unlikely.

We will never know because no law enforcement investigation was completed on the additional sites and no report is available to the public.

It is against the law to cut down White Bark Pine trees both here and in Canada. A similar incident occurred at a resort in Canada where white bark pine trees are listed as endangered. That Canadian Resort received a multimillion-dollar fine.

In the US apparently holding a special-use permit shields a Corporation from the law.

So is the public treated differently than corporations holding special use permits in our national forest?

Didn't some folks cutting willow trees while holding a survival course up the twisp river receive a $40,000 fine? Wasn't there a complete law enforcement investigation and wasn't there an undercover officer embedded in the survival course. (I don't remember the facts of that case).

So should Mr.Cramer receive anything more than a warning ticket for his actions? I think not.

[PAL]

South Cr trail owner had closed it before the BB rant, but the BB comments may have made him even more determined to keep it closed. So I get your point. I don't know if anyone has even tried to contact him. I have a letter written but haven't sent it, just because chances are I may not make it up there. It's a nice respectful letter. He did say in the paper that it may require a judicial review. And sounds like he has paperwork to try to prove that there may have been historical roads in. But those were most probably put in by mule or horse but not mechanized.
I totally agree with you on the tree cutting incident. I seem to remember some reporting in the paper. So the pilot did not reveal the other sites? Why didn't he. You said he took the fall. Did someone threaten him?

[Fun CH]

Pearl, I'd actually forgotten that you had contributed to that thread.

Quote:"What, you want everyone to get along and not disagree? I do think we can disagree without being nasty." End quote

Imo Jeff and Maria have a community responsibility (Civic duty) to actually moderate a public forum that they run. We know they don't even read the thing according to Maria, and as I pointed out conversations do get nasty, full of disinformation that's harmful, and divisive.

Most likely, according to the property owner the South Creek trail would be open with permission if not for that nastiness on the bulletin board directed towards the property owner.

Remember when I said here that if you show the owner some respect you might get what you wish for (that trail open) That didn't happen at our good old community bulletin board.

As far as the dog bite story goes, no police report was filed because,

Quote;

"my encounters with county officials have not been going smoothly, and i asked them not to give me a police attack to follow the dog attack" end quote

A police attack? The police force here don't attack anyone. They are caring members of our community and I for one am grateful for their service to our community.

No police report= no investigation= an allegedly harmful dog could kill next time.

So yeah the dog attack was unfortunate but in my opinion does not justify a personal attack directed against our community member police. But that's OK at the good old community bulletin board.

And no I did not voluntarily leave the bulletin board.

I got kicked off the BB right after I told the story where NCH owner Paul Butler verbally assaulted me and borderline threatened to me with four warnings to "stay out of Mazama", "because we don't like narcs".

That attack occurred at the twisp community center I assume because of my involvement in informing the Forest Service of his corporations destruction of federally listed sensitive species whitebark pine trees.( I believe the number was 60 trees). After those incidents, the heli pilot took the fall even though the owners admitted to cutting trees.

The pilot received a warning ticket and the permit was placed on probation for five years for failing to disclose to the FS other unauthorized cut sites during the initial investigation along with other permit operational discrepancies.

It was my civic duty to report those tree cutting incidents that I'd witnessed and it was my civic duty to file a police report after the attack occurred. I did both.

But apparently you can't tell that story on our good old community bulletin board Methownet BB.

So attack our community police on the BB, OK.

Tell the truth (publicly testify) about an attack by a local Corporation owner , not OK.

IMO, we all have a civic duty to serve our community based on truth.

[PAL]

What, you want everyone to get along and not disagree? I do think we can disagree without being nasty. I was trying to inject some humor in my post about the bitten biting back and then yes, I called the Newbies cowards for not signing. So I could have not said that.
But, you know, that this is not a perfect world. Do you want the other BB to be perfect or can there be discussions?
If a dog was attacking me, I would do everything in my power to keep it from biting and if that involved knifing it, I would. It could mean my life. Don't discount that. It could happen. I like dogs alot when the owners are behaving.
It would be nice to bring the community together in peace, but on the other hand, we are not warring. Disagreeing, and it's ok. If everyone is the same, it would not be good. Drones.
So right now, are you and I having a discussion and is it a civil discussion? I think so. I like you! I think the other BB has improved from the way it used to be.
Did you get kicked off or did you take yourself off? I think Jeff and Maria said that your posts(and some of mine too, although I was not told that as I did not talk to them) were not going anywhere, but that is no reason to kick you off? Why haven't I been?
I'm almost thinking some of the staff find their BB entertaining at times, although maybe they are too busy to read it until someone complains. It's about time for a complaint to come up, so one or 2 or those posts will be removed.

[Fun CH]

And now the MNBB is talking about arming yourself while walking through our neighborhoods. A bit of macho posturing going on there.

It is unfortunate that someone got bit by a dog, however as the story progressed, we now know the bite occurred when the guy was trying to stab the dog with a knife.

Quote:

"Supported by it's owners, the pet was able to bite me while i was trying and failing to get the blade into the pet. " end quote

I guess now that this place is becoming what many of us tried to escape from by moving here decades ago, its time to riffle up and go for a neighborhood walk.

Yet another example of the MNBB moderation style bringing our community together in peace (sarcasm).

[Fun CH]

And while I'm quoting J. Haidt, here is an except of an interview with him.

"MT: David Goodhart has described this as the distinction between the ‘anywheres’ and the ‘somewheres’.Theresa May famously said, “If you believe you're a citizen of the world, you're a citizen of nowhere.” So you can see these things playing out.

Is the link between polarisation and identity politics that identity politics essentially says that the most important thing in determining your political stance is you; the person you are; the tribe you belong to?

JH: Well, I don't know about that.

In my recent book with Greg Lukianoff, The Coddling of the American Mind, we offer a different take on identity politics. We say there are two versions. There is one we call ‘common humanity’ identity politics – where you draw a circle around the relevant community and you say ‘we're all Americans’, or ‘we're all British’, or ‘we're all human beings’. And then within that circle you might say, ‘some of our brothers and sisters are being denied justice or dignity’. That’s a more positive and loving approach, and this was used by Martin Luther King in the United States, and by Nelson Mandela when he got out of prison. It’s not zero-sum – it’s an attempt to say, we have differences in our community and we need a political process to adjudicate them, but it can be done in the spirit of ‘we're all in this together’.

What has arisen in United States and in the UK is what you might call ‘common enemy’ identity politics, which is based on the idea that there are several binary dimensions. Intersectional identity politics – while I understand the idea behind it, the idea that identities do interact, and it is based on an important insight – breeds a kind of ‘us versus them’ attitude within communities, within universities, within groups, that leads to intractable conflict. People see everything as a zero-sum game and you're fighting for slices of a fixed pie.

So I think the problem is not identity politics per se, it's the subtype or the flavour of identity politics."

https://www.thersa.org/blog/2018/12/haidt

[Fun CH]

David, none of rationalizations you have stated in these recent posts, all the bobbing and weaving ,IMO could possibly justify the disrespect that you have shown Walt.

...

Chris, I guess we can just agree to disagree.

In the end, you can prove me wrong if you wish. Reach out to Walt and kindly reason with him and persuade him to get vaccinated.

Do you really believe that publically calling a member of our community a fool and wishing their death is not disrespectful?

Here is another J Haidt quote to consider, key word "empathy".

"If you really want to change someone’s mind on a moral or political matter, you’ll need to see things from that person’s angle as well as your own. And if you do truly see it the other person’s way—deeply and intuitively—you might even find your own mind opening in response. Empathy is an antidote to righteousness, although it’s very difficult to empathize across a moral divide."

[Fun CH]

They believe the government is evil. It's just become a big bulky entity but not evil.

Probably more like a distrust of government. Given our countries history, including instances of genocide, slavery, using the military to bust up coal miners seeking better working conditions, turning fire hoses on pipeline protesters during the winter, and most recently, a madman in charge seeking to dismantle our democracy, etc, etc. that is not an illogical position to hold.

[Fun CH]

Qoute" I have to ask, what decent person would think any of this is okay? "End quote

Hear are a few quotes by J. Haidt, a moral psychologist who has been all around the world studying human ethical and moral systems. These are some of his conclusions from that study. Hope this helps.

"Morality binds and blinds. It binds us into ideological teams that fight each other as though the fate of the world depended on our side winning each battle. It blinds us to the fact that each team is composed of good people who have something important to say."

"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you’ll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you"

"Anyone who values truth should stop worshipping reason."

"The human mind is a story processor, not a logic processor"

"W]hen a group of people make something sacred, the members of the cult lose the ability to think clearly about it. Morality binds and blinds."

"We should not expect individuals to produce good, open-minded, truth-seeking reasoning, particularly when self-interest or reputational concerns are in play. But if you put individuals together in the right way, such that some individuals can use their reasoning powers to disconfirm the claims of others, and all individuals feel some common bond or shared fate that allows them to interact civilly, you can create a group that ends up producing good reasoning as an emergent property of the social system. This is why it's so important to have intellectual and ideological diversity within any group or institution whose goal is to find truth (such as an intelligence agency or a community of scientists) or to produce good public policy (such as a legislature or advisory board)."

[mister_coffee]

People sure are making a lot of money peddling disinformation:

https://publicintegrity.org/health/coro ... i-vaccine/

I have to ask, what decent person would think any of this is okay? You could make a free speech argument, although I think this is pretty clearly in shouting-fire-in-a-crowded-theatre territory.

Also: note that two of the individuals who Chrystal Perrow was relying upon as sources were prominently featured in the above article.

Y'know, there is a certain thread of speculative fiction that one could describe as "Pandemic apocalypse fiction." What I find interesting if you read those books (some are awful, though some are quite good) in most, if not many, it inevitably is liberals who go all fruit loop about vaccines and conservatives who dutifully line up for their shots and wear masks to protect themselves and others. And in the end there is a "better world" where all of the bad liberals are dead and conservatives go on to build that better world. I just do not understand how all of those authors misread the world (though perhaps not their audiences) so badly.

[PAL]

Let them be very afraid, very afraid of us. Ha Ha Ha. The laugh should be heard as Bela Lugosi would laugh.
Yes, where is the money coming from?
The woman's eyes says it all.
What should be done? Block them from social media and the video has been removed. But there is such a thing as free speech and they will find other sites to spew forth the disinformation. The trouble is a lot people start believing this sh**. Why supposedly intelligent people turn to it, I can't answer but surely somebody has an idea.
They believe the government is evil. It's just become a big bulky entity but not evil. When Trump was around it was becoming so or as we know, dysfunctional.
Was it happening before Covid or did this start awhile back? Covid revealed alot, it would seem.
Maybe intervention? They can believe what they want but they really want the backing of many others to make their twisted beliefs be true.
This is a tough question.

[mister_coffee]

I just want to know what you folks think should be done with people like this:

https://matthewremski.medium.com/anti-v ... 724ea216e0

Also, someone is paying people like that to spread disinformation. Where is that money coming from?

[PAL]

If people care about the community at large, they would get vaccinated. Most of the 25 and now more Christians that got Covid were not vaccinated.
Yes, contact Walt, but he may not be able to get the vaccine due to his medical condition. 25 is a very high number, in a small community, to have medical conditions that don't warrant taking the vaccine. They just didn't want to.
These are people we all know.

[mister_coffee]

David, none of rationalizations you have stated in these recent posts, all the bobbing and weaving ,IMO could possibly justify the disrespect that you have shown Walt.

...

Chris, I guess we can just agree to disagree.

In the end, you can prove me wrong if you wish. Reach out to Walt and kindly reason with him and persuade him to get vaccinated.

[PAL]

A lot of the problems with the Methownet BB stems from people making posts with a lot of misinformation. Walt's did have misinformation but alot of it was just his opinion. But it does get frustrating if a person tries to present the facts and others don't want to hear the facts. So I try to give the correct info out, but of course my opinion sneaks it's way in too.
I realize their minds cannot be changed unless they make that discovery on their own. I find myself feeling sorry/sad for Walt because he is divisive, which leads myself and others to be divisive.
Here is Michelle Mondot's response. I thought she sums it up well. Pearl

Walt,
I don’t know what you mean by “opposing opinion will never be respected in any form with you PEEPS factual of not if it is against the agendas this valleys NEW BLUE AGENDA”.
What NEW BLUE AGENDA? This valleys community has been working together to build our resilience, take care of our people and eco systems for as long as I have lived here, over 30 years. This has not been a liberal or conservative ongoing process but a community wide project, churches, non-profits, 2nd home valley supporter(mostly those rich elites from the west side who have given and given and given to enrich all out lives, especially the most vulnerable) and anyone who wanted to work with others for our good.
We have always been able to work together with minimal them vs us conflicts.
In this new more polarized, resentful and ugly political environment people who think different thoughts have become the enemy; family, friends and neighbors. That is no way to shape a good future for all of us.
I thought by now we would have developed a more open, inclusive and healthy way to live together. But it seems we have a long way to go to have a society that works for all life, human and others. To have any chance for that ever happening we are gong to have to all give up our commitment to being right, and the trap of human supremacy over all other life forms. Can we do that? At this point I’m not sure, it’s not looking good for our grandchildren with the constant conflict and pain we dish out on a regular basis to others.
May we all learn to live and thrive together.
Mich
Libby creek

[Fun CH]

David, none of rationalizations you have stated in these recent posts, all the bobbing and weaving ,IMO could possibly justify the disrespect that you have shown Walt.

But I don't completely blame you. I blame the Methownet BB for providing a platform for unfettered
speech. As noted, the owners don't even read the BB or assign a moderation team. They depend upon members informing on other members, all of which invites posts such as yours and a few others there directed towards Walt. (These are just facts)

You are smart enough where you could have offered valid counter point using facts to counter Walt's misunderstanding. Sure, he may not have understood the facts but at least an effort would have been made to help.

The lurker people (your argument) would have been informed of the facts if you had chosen that path.

But what did you really give them? What example did you set? What path did you stray down?

[mister_coffee]

I do have sympathy for Walt, but that sympathy is finite.

Then I think of the hundreds of thousands of people who have died from this disease under awful conditions, many of whom did not have to die if they would have taken even basic precautions or if our health care and public health systems were even basically prepared for an inevitable pandemic. With all that death how much sympathy should I spare for someone who chooses not to take a lifesaving medication because of their political ideology?

In the end I doubt anything I say or do one way or another would persuade Walt. On the other hand, there are a lot of people out there who just lurk on the BB and rarely post, and if some of those are fence sitters with respect to the vaccine they can perhaps be persuaded. People in general have superb moral gyroscopes but piss-poor moral compasses, so if they see others do something and receive social approval for it they are more likely to go along with it -- and the opposite holds, if you are considering doing something which others consider ridiculous and worthy of mockery and contempt that definitely weighs in your calculations, even if you don't know the people doing the mocking.

The closest thing I can see to a moral imperative in this whole mess is that anyone who posts vicious disinformation on the vaccines (e.g. you have to quarantine after receiving the vaccine because you could infect unvaccinated people) needs to be shut down hard and with no mercy. Not just for their sake but because disinformation is its own kind of epidemic and spreading malignant disinformation harms others as well.

Also I keep coming back to the fact that we need to treat adults as adults. When adults are choosing to do something bad and ultimately self-destructive that also harms others I do not know if being gentle is the correct way to proceed. Sometimes people just need a good kick in the butt.

[PAL]

I do think I remember Walt's wife said he does have a physical illness. He does get defensive and takes things personally and thinks he is being attacked.
I know not to argue back at him. Michell Mondot had a wonderful post about the very thing you are talking about Chris, about working things out as a community and at the same time talking to Walt in a non combative way. I can't find her original post but I did copy it. Unfortunately there is weird word spacing. Maybe I can correct it and post it.

[Fun CH]

Perhaps there is a better way? Maybe Walt would get the vaccine if you all showed him some respect and kindness?

I would compare Walt's post with Chrystal Perrow's post in an earlier thread. Chrystal's post was woefully misinformed but respectful. People replied respectfully. By contrast Walt was looking for a fight and came in with guns blazing. I doubt any change in tone on my part would have changed things in the least.

And, at least in my opinion, trying to reason with someone who makes a post like that is giving them a respect they have not earned or shown to others. By trying to engage with them in good faith you are actually elevating their point of view to a reasonable one that adults should take seriously, again something that his post clearly did not merit. In the end, having any debate with someone whose head is in that space is like trying to reason with a 2-year-old or a puppy. You aren't going to change anyone's mind and most likely you are going to look ridiculous for trying.

In his later post he had two words that convinced me that there was no possibility of constructive engagement with him: "Your facts." To be 100 percent clear, there are not "Your facts" and not "my facts", only "the facts." If you aren't going to even engage with reality it is useless to engage with you at all.
And if your ideology requires you to have a set of "alternative facts" to make your worldview consistent make sense, then you ought to spend some time doing some hard thinking about your ideology.

I honestly grieve that so many of our friends, neighbors, and family members have fallen down this rabbit hole of insanity. I hope to one day welcome them back to reality.

If you want to appoint yourself peacemaker and work to eliminate divisiveness in our community, I'm all for it. But you aren't going to make that happen by arguing with me over my posts. I also doubt you are going to get very far without acknowledging the deeper problem and its asymmetrical nature.

so why engage at all if you think you can't reason with someone? And why go one step further and imply he's a fool and he and his kind should just die?

That was the premise of my original post, that our supposed community bulletin board which is supposedly here to serve the community only serves to further divide our community and foster the spread of disinformation and hate.

Maybe all Walt needs is a little love and respect thrown his way no matter how disagreeable you think he is.

[mister_coffee]

Perhaps there is a better way? Maybe Walt would get the vaccine if you all showed him some respect and kindness?

I would compare Walt's post with Chrystal Perrow's post in an earlier thread. Chrystal's post was woefully misinformed but respectful. People replied respectfully. By contrast Walt was looking for a fight and came in with guns blazing. I doubt any change in tone on my part would have changed things in the least.

And, at least in my opinion, trying to reason with someone who makes a post like that is giving them a respect they have not earned or shown to others. By trying to engage with them in good faith you are actually elevating their point of view to a reasonable one that adults should take seriously, again something that his post clearly did not merit. In the end, having any debate with someone whose head is in that space is like trying to reason with a 2-year-old or a puppy. You aren't going to change anyone's mind and most likely you are going to look ridiculous for trying.

In his later post he had two words that convinced me that there was no possibility of constructive engagement with him: "Your facts." To be 100 percent clear, there are not "Your facts" and not "my facts", only "the facts." If you aren't going to even engage with reality it is useless to engage with you at all.
And if your ideology requires you to have a set of "alternative facts" to make your worldview consistent make sense, then you ought to spend some time doing some hard thinking about your ideology.

I honestly grieve that so many of our friends, neighbors, and family members have fallen down this rabbit hole of insanity. I hope to one day welcome them back to reality.

If you want to appoint yourself peacemaker and work to eliminate divisiveness in our community, I'm all for it. But you aren't going to make that happen by arguing with me over my posts. I also doubt you are going to get very far without acknowledging the deeper problem and its asymmetrical nature.

[mister_coffee]

I somehow knew you'd bring that up...

The thing is, mainstream environmental organizations such as the Sierra Club have repeatedly disavowed and denounced such actions. The Sierra Club was loudly denouncing Earth First! back in the mid-1980s. And the people I knew active in environmental issues were universally appalled by such looniness. I participated in a number of non-violent protests at that time and it was heartbreaking to me how hard we worked to make sure that everyone, most especially non-participants and innocent bystanders, would not be endangered by our protests. Heartbreaking because we were apparently considered violent terrorists for holding up signs in front of a ranger station.

Speaking for myself, I backed away from some environmental organizations (this was thirty years ago for context) because certain people in those organizations were playing cute about supporting violent actions by ELF and Earth First!. So I do practice what I preach.

However, mainstream Republic Party leaders refuse to denounce violent actions and threats of violence by their supporters. Rank-and-file members are choosing to ignore the ugly truth or make ludicrous claims that there are "false flag" operations designed to discredit them.

Also, the scale of the violence coming from the right dwarfs that coming from any other part of our society, and arguably you'd have to go back to organizations like the KKK to describe anything comparable in our country's history. And yes, the Democrats of the time played cute and enabled those murderous clowns, to their everlasting shame.

In the case of Laurie Jones, our "lean Republican" county council did not publicly denounce the death threats. And my understanding is that they dragged their feet on providing additional protection for her.

I agree that you cannot control the actions of crazy people, especially violent crazy people. But if those people attach themselves to your banner you need to go out of your way to disavow them. That's just good hygiene.

[Fun CH]

@David, here is one of those posts where you try to be helpful to combat the misinformation, then it turns to disrespect. Perhaps you could have educated with facts on how the vaccine doesnt give a person covid 19 instead of doing the 'internet thing'?

Quote from Walt and David.
"You are to mask up and try to isolate, limit public exposure for at least 2
> weeks after the shot as your body will be sluffing covid like crazy till
> this magic shot kicks in. MORE OR LESS THE ADVISEMENT

Those aren't the guidelines. Not even "more or less". Not at all in fact.

Posts like this leave me to think we should just let the poor fools die and get on with things.

Also, I've had the shots for almost four months and my 5G reception is better than ever!
David Bonn"

And the current last post, more disrespect directed towards Walt who is also a bit disrepectful but makes a good point that his POV is not being respected.

"Walt, you lack the cognitive ability to discern fact from fiction. Good luck with your ongoing battle with reality.
Bill Stinson"

Perhaps there is a better way? Maybe Walt would get the vaccine if you all showed him some respect and kindness?

[Fun CH]

Quote: "The point is that if you share that ideology and openly advocate for it you are enabling those violent crazy people by convincing them that they have support and their cause is "legitimate". End quote

Wait, so if I support environmental issues I am somehow supporting and enabling the criminal behavior of extreme, presumably left wing environmentalists?

I know of one local instance where a local (I assume with left wing views) received death threats because of his corporations environmental abuses. So this criminal activity is not exclusive to those who identify with right wing ideology.

What I'm saying is that here in the Methow it's time to tone this type of divisive rhetoric directed towards our fellow community members who are only guilty of exercising their right not to be vaccinated.

Hopefully there will be enough of us that receive the vaccine that we are able to "carry the water" this time for the benefit for all the members of our community.

[PAL]

As I see it, do you think pro vaccine people would hurl death threats at Laurie Jones and others? I think not. Another point I have been thinking about is this.
The main reason for the lockdown was to keep our hospital system from crashing. As it was, morgues were having a hard time keeping up.
So the lockdown helped prevent incontrollable spread. It spread rapidly, but not like India.
So yes, people get to choose whether or not to get vaccinated. But, who are they thinking of? Not the nurses and doctors that went through hellish days saving people and helping people. They are not thinking of their neighbor. Who are they thinking of?
David, like your last post, especially this sentence, "The point is that if you share that ideology and openly advocate for it you are enabling those violent crazy people by convincing them that they have support and their cause is "legitimate". If you don't loudly and clearly denounce such behavior you are only encouraging it."
There is something going on with the Republican party. It is getting dangerous. Here is a link to an article. Maybe it is a bit radical for some, but is worth a ponder. https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/06/22 ... orld/print
So glad we can give links here. Thanks.
Pearl
PS-let me know if you can't open it. I'm still sort of new at this stuff. Luddite that I am.