The wall of vaccine opposition might be starting to crumble

[Fun CH]

Good news today. Covid cases starting to drop. With more vaccinated, and more expected, along with those that have acquired natural immunity, it's expected that the pandemic will ease this fall.

People still getting sick so not over yet but not the doomsday scenario predicted by the internet fear mongers.

It seems that when this pandamic is finally over, we will have done it together after all, both the vaccinated and those that have achieved natural immunity by contracting the disease.

The internet dividers appear to be losing and shared human values winning.

Values such as bodily autonomy, the ultimate human right for free people.

[Fun CH]

Seahawks new policy. This is starting to happen at other sports venues.


"Vaccine Policy
All attendees age 12 and over will be required to provide proof of COVID-19 vaccination for entry at Lumen Field. In lieu of vaccination verification, fans may also present a negative COVID-19 test result taken within 72 hours prior to the event."

https://www.seahawks.com/game-day/health-and-safety/

[PAL]

Well, I did miss the smiley face and for some reason I had my dander up. Hey all, Chris has a good heart and is trying to see both sides as he says. Well, I do, but, but, but....
Here is an excellent link that should probably go into a new category. But then we are talking about humans continuing on this planet. This is all inter related.
https://player.vimeo.com/video/594504137

[PAL]

Bingo! Chris this reminds that it is, indeed, the System, that has failed people. The healthcare system has been creaking along, broken, so thanks for the reminder. And maybe not a lot of people realized or realize that. So I gained some clarity here about the situation.
But then I wonder, if people knew just how bad off our system is, would it have helped had they followed CDC guidelines.
It's seems like at some sporting events masks are required, vaccines are required, but yes, why didn't they apply this to the Seahawks fans and other events? And how safe is flying, if the Delta is so much more contagious? Are any flights requiring proof of vaccination? Wait! I will Google this myself. I am just asking questions for thought, you don't have to answer them. These are just rolling around in my head.
They just don't want to lock it down despite this virus. So everyone lives with the consequences.
Yep, the Pandemic Response team and supplies was disassembled thanks to a former admin.

[Fun CH]

I think you still miss my point. I and others are trying to do what is right but we may not get the health care we need, when we need it.

I understand your point, however I don't see victims of an insidious disease, who have been mislead by unscrupulous politicians and media talking heads with their disinformation all amplified by social media, as worthy of blame for a health care system in crisis or, as this article points out, failure of Government to suppress a virus. You can still fly and attend a Seahawks game without having been vaccinated.

"The spread of the B.1.617.2 variant, first identified in India, in some areas in the north-west of England seems to be what is driving Hancock’s remarks. By blaming people for Covid-19 cases, the government can divert attention from its failures to suppress the virus through, for example, instigating firmer border controls."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... cock-virus"

" COVID-19 didn’t create the problems in our health system, it revealed them in a way that can no longer be ignored.

"The U.S. health system that exists today is a hodgepodge of ideas, programs and regulations that is both extraordinarily expensive and highly inefficient. And despite its size and technological advancements, our health system is beset by tremendous gaps and inequities that favor some groups while unfairly disadvantaging others—minoritized communities, people living in rural areas, and people who are unable to afford or access health insurance, just to name a few"

https://www.ama-assn.org/about/leadersh ... r-covid-19

"Seven MIT researchers see lessons and opportunities for US health care."

"The spread of the virus revealed shortages in basic equipment and hospitals beds, the disproportionate effects of disease on the marginalized, the challenge of prevention rather than cure, the limits of insurance-based models to provide equitable care, and our unacknowledged dependence on the labor of underpaid health care workers."

https://news.mit.edu/2021/what-has-pand ... hange-0405

[PAL]

Do you think this rounding up would/could happen here in this country? Well after Jan. 6th...Were we, are we headed for an authoritarian gov't? Some people think so.
Anyway, I've never had the flu, honestly. Have not had a cold in 10 yrs. so I'm doin something right, I think. I do get that that some people keep working, ironically the restaurant workers, as they get no paid sick days, so that's why they keep working.
I think you still miss my point. I and others are trying to do what is right but we may not get the health care we need, when we need it. Because Covid has taken over our hospital system. The story of my friend. She is being affected by Covid.
I think that quote too sometimes. I have compassion, guess not enough and it is running thin. As the people that have Covid ask for people to pray for them when they did not take precautions, did not vaccinate. See this all the time on the evil FB.
By doing the right thing, I mean following the CDC guidelines for beating back this virus, but it is too late now.

[Fun CH]

And earlier when I said I don't get the flu shot, but you know what, if it were mandated I would.
Pearl

All is forgiven Pearl.

A madated vaccine is different then mandatory vaccine. Would you resist being rounded up and forced to be receive a flu vaccinate? How about forced to be sterilized because the government deemed it necessary not to pass along a deadly genetic disease or there are too many people competing for limited resources? Authoritarian Governments have done simular things in the past.

When you have the flu do you stay home until you are no longer a risk to others? The flu also kills the vulnerable.

Many people don't stay home when they are sick because low paying jobs don't allow them to.

Or they have already booked something like a xc ski vacation here and think their sick child should be fitted with rental gear at the local ski shop.

Or they need some ice cream from the grocery store or a book from the library, perhaps not aware that the librarian or the grocery clerk just got sick because of their actions.

My hope is that this pandamic will bring awareness to flu season issues as well.

Quote:So this is why we who are vaxed, masked, paying our health insurance, and doing all we can to prevent the spread of this virus, get a bit upset with those that "just don't want to get vaxxed" or mask." End quote

One of my favorite historical quotes that describes the human condition is:

Forgive them Father they know not what they do.

[PAL]

Ok, my bad. Yes, I missed that smiley face. Guess I got up on the wrong side this morning.
Threatening and name calling and bashing the non vaccinated doesn't work. But here is what the vaccinated are up against. A friend of mine needed a small procedure done before a bigger surgery and she couldn't go to Omak because of staffing shortages. She was also told at her first initial consult in Wenatchee last week, that she was the 1st person the provider saw that was vaccinated that day! Then for the bigger surgery, she may get bumped because of shortages, or just plain stopping procedures because of safety concerns. And this is a procedure that should not be put off.
So this is why we who are vaxed, masked, paying our health insurance, and doing all we can to prevent the spread of this virus, get a bit upset with those that "just don't want to get vaxxed" or mask. Their choice and they must say tough sh** to all of us doing the right thing to help our fellow man. And earlier when I said I don't get the flu shot, but you know what, if it were mandated I would.
Pearl

[Fun CH]

Chris, things can be going along just fine between us and having a discussion and then you make a FU 'd remark, "is there anything else we can Google for you"? You can twist things. I Google stuff, but thought you with your infinite all knowing, know it all wisdom, might have a different site. Screw you.

I guess you missed my smiley face.

I'm not all knowing and what small amount of wisdom that I've managed to muster has been learned from others wiser than I.

I've just been educated enough to underdstand that both sides of an issue need to be examined. That involves trying hard not to let bias or emotion interfere with facts or as we like to say, Inconvenient Truths.

Truths such as contacting covid 19 does provide immunity in many cases and that reinfection cases are rare as reported by the CDC or that bodily autonomy is a fundamental human right and our ethical obligation to recognize as stated by the World Health Organization.

I also understand that research shows that it is extremely difficult to reach across the aisle and feel empathic towards the circumstances others find themselves in.

But that is exactly what ordinary people have to do now.

We simply can't let politicians and commercial media, in service to their self-interest monetary and power gain, spoon feed us divisive rhetoric that we parrot ad nauseam.

We can't let them divide the very communities that WE All have worked hard to build.

Cooperation works. The virus is the enemy, not the folks who do not want to get a vaccine for what ever reason.

Calling them fools, advocating to round them up against their will, and posting things like wishing the fools should just die, just stirs a pot that is already past the boiling point.

Better just to turn the heat way down.

[PAL]

Chris, things can be going along just fine between us and having a discussion and then you make a FU 'd remark, "is there anything else we can Google for you"? You can twist things. I Google stuff, but thought you with your infinite all knowing, know it all wisdom, might have a different site. Screw you.

[Fun CH]

Great. Thanks for the links. What about reinfection? I know there have been some but is there a number?

CDC reports:

"Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare​."

One research paper found 44 cases in 14,000 people studied.​

Known breakthrough cases among the vaccinated. Jan 1 2021 to April 30. Note the 2% fatality rate among the Known Breakthrough cases. The fatality rate for the unvaccinated is thought to be 1.4%. ( you still stand a better chance of not being infected in the first place after having received the vaccine)

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e3.htm

"A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 40–74 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years."

Another good report on estimating vs. Reported cases. The CDC estimates that only 1 in 4 cases are reported. So it estimated that 120 million people in the United States have contracted Covid.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... urden.html

Is there anything else you would like us to Google for you Pearl?

[PAL]

Great. Thanks for the links. What about reinfection? I know there have been some but is there a number?

[Fun CH]

Chris and Ken, can you please provide credible sites and sources that talk about our natural immunity helping to fight this?

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-res ... y-covid-19

"Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19


The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection."

From WHO concerning naturally-derived immunity.

"Within 4 weeks following infection, 90-99% of individuals infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus develop detectable neutralizing antibodies.
• The strength and duration of the immune responses to SARS-CoV-2 are not completely understood and currently available data suggests that it varies by age and the severity of symptoms. Available scientific data suggests that in most people
immune responses remain robust and protective against reinfection for at least 6-8 months after infection (the longest follow up with strong scientific evidence is currently approximately 8 months"

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... xd-mRJhvx9

[mister_coffee]

Yes, we certainly will not get rid of COVID anytime soon. However, it is within our power to choose whether 500,000 people die every year from it or fewer than 10,000. I know which one I'd choose, though I am unsure many others have really thought that through.

As for natural immunity, we need to remember that somewhere around two percent of the people who get COVID die. And somewhere between twenty and thirty percent have significant (and often disabling) long-term health consequences. Even if natural immunity is superior to vaccination, it comes at a very high price. Arguing that we would be better off "taking it on the chin" (in one leader's words) than vaccinating people with a vaccine that has been proven safe and effective is horrifying social darwinism. Killing off that many people and having that many people horribly injured would permanently change our society, and not in any particularly good way.

We also know very little about how long "natural immunity" lasts, and we do know that at least in some cases it doesn't last very long at all. In particular people who had asymptomatic infections seem to be vulnerable to serious infections in spite of their previous exposure.

The upshot is that in the face of an easily transmissible and dangerous disease, the rules have to change. How we view each other and how we view our place in society has to change. We need to adapt. You aren't adapting if you just carry on the old way and ignore all of the sick people.

When people talk about this disease changing and adapting, we all need to keep in mind that there is no reason we can't have a hyper-delta variant that is just as easy to transmit and is 90 percent fatal. Or if we overwhelm our health care system and they start having to ration care the fatality rates will kick up dramatically. So not stomping on this thing as hard and fast and mean as we can dramatically increases the risks of bad consequences (e.g. much more death and suffering) down the road.

So, what is less onerous: letting literally millions of people die in the name of "natural immunity" or forcing people to take a safe and effective vaccine and having far fewer people die? It seems like an easy choice to me.

[PAL]

Chris and Ken, can you please provide credible sites and sources that talk about our natural immunity helping to fight this? Ken, I agree, we will not get rid of Covid. If we take measures, we can reduce it's spread. We don't know; it could become more deadly or fade. I don't know if we can get by on natural immunity alone. Do we ever become immune from the flu? There are many varieties. I've never gotten a flu shot and I don't want to. The reason I don't get colds or flu, especially in the winter, as I do not go to large group settings or gatherings. Never did want to, not because of illness. I just didn't want to subject myself to alot of people. That's why I moved here, not to socialize but for the peace.
I have a very strong immune system, and I know exposure to viruses help that immune system. But I feel like this is a different animal. Maybe more insidious. Excuse the rambling.
Pearl

[dorankj]

We are never going to rid ourselves of COVID. Because it has animal vectors it will continue to mutate and ‘evolve’ (really de-volve) and continue to infect us all. Luckily, for the incredible vast majority of healthy people with adequate immune systems it will only ever be a reasonably mild cold or flu-like symptoms, their bodies immune system will adapt to the new variant (setting us up for the next one) and life on this orb will go on. Some will want masks forever and some will readily take any and all ‘booster’ shots to deal with the latest version (similar to the seasonal flu shot). Some will not wear masks everywhere or take every shot and some will even believe microchips and nano-particles etc. Basically life for us humans!

[Fun CH]

Masks work. Vaccines work. However, in an environment where a substantial portion of the population is unable or unwilling to be vaccinated we must continue to have mask mandates as well.

You left out natural immunity from contracting Covid works to some extent. But that fact doesn't support your POV.

Quote;"I can understand not wanting to get vaccinated. I can understand not wanting to wear a mask. Not wanting to do both in the presence of a deadly disease makes no sense at all. And all the evidence I see is that the two groups overlap nearly 100 percent." End quote

You can't possibly know that is an accurate number so why pretend it is? I thought that you understood anecdotal evidence versus fact based upon, you know, actual scientific research that takes bias into account.

[Fun CH]

Its really a moot point you all "round 'em up and shoot 'em" folks are making because this is something no Gov body in the US is ever going to do.

Its disappointing that members of my sub-tribe are advocating for this extreme measure. I'd hoped we have evolved since we locked up Japanese Americans in concentration camps during World War II and since slavery was the law of the land during George Washington's time.

Lets check history and see who else was in favor of similar tactics.

Vladimir Lenin
Adolf Hitler
Benito Mussolini
Khmer Rouge
Mao Zedong
Joseph Stalin

Can we please now focus on reality.

39.9 million (reported cases) Americans have some sort of covid immunity due to having acquired the disease.

New York times just reported 74.4% of Americans have received at least one dose of covid vaccine,
So around 248 million Americans have at least some immunity to Covid from receiving the vaccine.

So approx 288 million people in the US have some sort of covid immunity either by vaccination or by having contracted covid-19

333 million people living in the US

So approx 84% of Americans now have some sort of immunity to covid 19.

That number is consistent with what has been reported in the news lately that 80% of the people in the United States now have some sort of covid immunity.

It is thought that 94% of people need to have covid immunity in order to reach "herd" immunity.

In the last seven days the average vaccinations have been 662,000 per day.

We are almost there.

Please check my math and numbers.

[mister_coffee]

Masks work. Vaccines work. However, in an environment where a substantial portion of the population is unable or unwilling to be vaccinated we must continue to have mask mandates as well.

I can understand not wanting to get vaccinated. I can understand not wanting to wear a mask. Not wanting to do both in the presence of a deadly disease makes no sense at all. And all the evidence I see is that the two groups overlap nearly 100 percent.

With my own eyes I can see that many people are refusing to wear masks for some reason or other. I also know for a fact that asking them to wear a mask, no matter how politely, might result in a five-alarm public meltdown or even violence. Store employees have been shot by angry customers when they asked them to wear a mask. Law enforcement rarely is willing to enforce mask requirements. So in reality we are left with unenforceable mask mandates.

So basically we find ourselves in a situation where literally hundreds or thousands of our fellow humans die every day, for no reason at all but sheer foolishness.

[dorankj]

The government does however have to use the least amount of force necessary to meet it’s goals and since we’ve been assured that masks and social distancing stops either giving or receiving COVID, it must be allowed. Or do you not trust the science/data?

[Mark58]

All of the above info re how to treat TB patients is true. So is that fact that we have forced them to be treated in the name of public health. The two are not mutually exclusive. And so is the fact that George Washington forced his army to be variolated against smallpox, without which we all might not be here discussing this. The old fire in the theater thing basically says you can't put your "rights" above the public interest.

[Fun CH]

And all I am saying is that we should treat people who refuse to wear a mask and get vaccinated for COVID approximately how we treat people who refuse to wear a mask or get treated for tuberculosis. Both are serious and dangerous diseases which are easily transmitted.

Here's a quote from a World Health Organization document concerning the ethics of treating tuberculosis patients. Note the recognition of a person's right to bodily autonomy. So the WHO recognizes this concept, but you don't. TB is still a problem but now mostly of disease as a result of poverty.

"People need to be fully informed and counselled about their TB situation.
Individuals have a right to bodily autonomy, therefore people undergoing TB testing and treatment should receive complete and accurate information about the
risks, benefits and alternatives available to them; and access to all means which enable informed adherence to treatment.
Health care providers have an obligation to support patients to complete therapy and offer
all possible treatment options
Any tool to ensure adherence to treatment, including directly-observed therapy, should be based on a patient-centred approach, so that values and needs of
patient guide the care delivered, respecting autonomy
and privacy."

Here is the pdf title if you want to Google it.

ETHICAL ISSUES IN TUBERCULOSIS
PREVENTION, TREATMENT & CARE

[Fun CH]

I don't think you can make a valid "both sides" argument here:

One side is making threats of violence against health care workers.

like I said , the minority fringe who make the most noise on both sides make the headlines. Drama sells.

"Idaho lawmakers receive threatening letters over support of controversial wolf bill"

"https://magicvalley.com/news/local/govt ... c44e0.html

And violence against health care workers is nothing new and precedes the pandamic.

"But violence against health care workers long preceded the pandemic. “We postulate this: People are getting increasingly frustrated with the health care system. It’s hard to see a doctor, people fallen into bankruptcy or having to pay large amounts of bills -- there’s an awful lot of frustration in the health care system,” Brogan says."

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/new ... n-the-rise

Until we address the root causes of poverty, low paying jobs while the rich get richer, homelessness, drug abuse accelerated by Drug Company profit, political corruption, gun violence, violence against women, etc. etc, not much is going to change and most likely get worse.

And what I'm saying to you David is, its not your message, its how you choose to deliver that message using derogatory language (with a bit of misinformation) directed towards ordinary people who you think are the problem.

Why did you move into a diverse cultural community and precede to insult and disrespect members of that community who do not share your same views on what medical care they may think is best for themselves?

As Rays post shows, Covid itself will reveal the media and political hacks who are using the pandamic to engorge their wallets.

[Mark58]

Results from a recent study show the substantial toll that COVID-19 has taken on some people: those referred to outpatient rehabilitation clinics for post–COVID-19 care were twice as likely as the clinics’ patients with cancer to be in poor physical health or in pain. (emphasis mine)

About one-third of the patients who had COVID-19 described their general health as fair or poor compared with one-quarter of the patients with cancer. A greater proportion of patients with post–COVID-19 symptoms also said their mental health was fair or poor. And although they were more likely than the control group to be male, younger, and employed, 72% of patients who had COVID-19 had generalized muscle weakness compared with about 40% of the patients with cancer.

Pain and difficulty with physical activities were more common among patients with post–COVID-19 symptoms: more than one-third said they found it difficult to complete chores, navigate stairs, run errands or shop, and walk for 15 minutes. Working in or outside the home was more difficult than usual for 37% of those who survived COVID-19, and 33% said social activities were challenging. In contrast, about 20% of the control group said either activity was problematic.

[pasayten]

At least six radio hosts and high-profile anti-mask and anti-vaccine advocates have died from COVID-19 in recent weeks.

The men are radio hosts Dick Farrel, Phil Valentine, and Marc Bernier, as well as former CIA officer Robert David Steele, anti-masker Caleb Wallace, and conservative leader Pressley Stutts.

https://www.businessinsider.com/conserv ... -19-2021-9