Perceived risks of a New Locally filmed Ski Movie

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Fun CH
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Re: Perceived risks of a New Locally filmed Ski Movie

Post by Fun CH »

alfrandell wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:04 am
anyway, i am not bombing your post.
i did not come into the discussion in the middle, ignoring the title of the post and what had been typed.
i contributed to the post with discussion rather than grabbing a single phrase and worrying that like an angry pit bull.

i am capable of doing that.
try harder!
and yet you did just that with your BS quoted above and aggressive posture on that other thread.

That other thread turned into a useful discussion on not believing people who post divisive BS on the internet without supporting facts. Also a good discussion on not escalating a potentially violent situation.

Peace out!
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
Fun CH
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Re: Perceived risks of a New Locally filmed Ski Movie

Post by Fun CH »

alfrandell wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:34 am it is just starting here.
rock climbers see more of the reality of guiding because it is more open to viewing.
guides are total sell outs,
and the worst people to protect anything.
they have sold the thing that they profess to cherish.

Moab utah became a cesspit of hovering choppers and jet boats and motorized partying.
folks that do not like commotion just leave.
yea, BC skiers see that also because we're the local people that the guides followed in order to "discover" new routes and ski terrain to sell.

They place very low angle trails that often repeatedly cross Avalanche terrain and travel with little separation between members in their groups that are increasingly growing larger.

That practice places what are in effect speed bumps across the terrain that we ski down.

Its a huge impact but can also be deadly.

That practice exposes more group members to a potential Avalanche leading to the risk of multiple burials and is considered a breach of safe practice protocols.

North Cascade Mountain Guides had a recent Avalanche accident where two members of the guided group where caught in the same avalanche as they passed under a still wind loading Mountain buttress*.

One injured member required evacuation after being buried and lost his ski gear. We only know about this incident because of the enormous amount of rescue resources that were present and the fact that the victim posted a report on NWAC. A later report followed, I believe written by NWAC personal who wasn't there.

Here's another link where a fundraiser for Avalanche awareness resulted in the death of multiple people traveling too closely together in avalanche Terrain


https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-a ... s-learned/

Quote

"Rick Gaukel, the certified avalanche-safety instructor who’d given a briefing on the dangerous snow conditions earlier that morning: Gone. Rescuers would later find his body tangled up in Boulay’s legs."




* I was out that same day with a friend and we decided to change our objective after observing the new snow amounts and continuing wind loading (increases avalanche, potential). It was not a day to go playing in avalanche Terrain, yet the local guides did.
Last edited by Fun CH on Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
Fun CH
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Re: Perceived risks of a New Locally filmed Ski Movie

Post by Fun CH »

Note, the following is a matter of public record.

Here's a quote from the Sept 8th MVN.

"If there’s a Methow Valley guy who understands risk, it’s Winthrop resident Josh Cole..... He has also spent his career managing risk in the backcountry, "

This is the guide, out with one client in the Hairpin Valley, that ski cut an avalanche down on to and over a local BC skier (a local fire fighter hero) that I referenced in the post above.

A ski cut is an intentional cut across the potential avalanche start zone as a way to mitigate risk by controling (triggering an avalanche) an avalanche prone slope before it is skied. At developed ski areas, explosives are often use for the same type of control work.

In the case of this near miss avalanche incident that technique worked well by triggering a slab avalanche, only its obvious that Josh didn't make sure that the avy path was free of skiers below. Making sure the path is clear is paramount for the safety for all concerned.

The skier yelled up to Josh before the accident but wasn't heard. He escaped being dragged along with the avalanche by diving under the fast approaching wall of snow ​and the avy ran over and past him before continuing on down an even steeper heavily treed slope with rock outcrop features.

The morning of the near miss accident, it was noted that recent Avalanche activity had occurred in Spire Gully.

Recent Avalanche activity is the best indicator for high hazard conditions, especially on slopes with a similar aspect. The near-miss accident occurred on a simular aspect just up the Valley from Spire Gully.

After the accident, the local BC skier insisted that this incident be reported to the Northwest Avalanche Center and that the report contain their names (many guide involved near miss accident reports are never seen by the public).

Just as recent avalanche activity is a good indicator for high hazard, near miss avalanche incidents are a good indicator that a skiers avalanche assessments and safety protocols need to be reexamined..

That review is done so that we all may learn the lesson of the error and hopefully not repeat the same mistake.

After discussing an earlier guide near miss avalanche burial with one of the guides who helped dig out the critically buried guide/owner, I was asked not to disclose the accident to the public because talking about guide related accidents is "bad for business".

It seems that they don't want the public or potential clients to understand the real risks involved when considering employing a mountain guide. This is an industry wide problem.

This is another safety issue that I'm working on with the Forest Service. Because of that work, local guides are now required to report any Avalanche accident that requires medical treatment.

However, IMO, that reporting requirement does not go far enough.

Guide Outfitters on all National Forests should be required to report all such incidents whether or not an injury occurred.

Clients have a right to know what the real risk is, not the perceived risk, so that they may manage their own risk by having accurate information on which to base that risk analysis.

Do you agree Josh? Do clients have a right to know a guides safety record before they consider hiring a guide? What about the guide company safety record as a whole?
Last edited by Fun CH on Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perceived risks of a New Locally filmed Ski Movie

Post by Fun CH »

alfrandell wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:07 am the same thing happened to the rock climbing game.
i actually ended up quitting the activity because the new folk attracted to cliff climbing were of low quality.
It is exactly what you would expect if new participants are brought in and trained by movies that are shot only to make money.
pleasant, sportsmanlike participants were completely swamped with whining babies.
This problem is not entirely unrelated to what is happening in the Methow valley.
Look who is coming here, and how they behave after buying in.

We are taking the wrong tourists and the wrong residents.
tourists who wish to rip something from the valley,
and residents who do not actually live here.

it is fine if you believe that it is 'only business'.
that is all that it is.
business.
there is no such thing as only business.
making money just to be rich is a foul business.

I do not have much more energy.
this valley will be left to stew in it's own sour air.
[a reference to the work of Sylvia Plath.]
the more seasoned BC skiers tend limit the time spent in avalanche terrain. We try to find climbing routes that avoid that risk exposure as much as possible.

Then we ski one at a time down the avalanche paths because around here, its generally where previous avalanches have cleaned out the trees or the trees haven't been able to establish themselves due to rockfall piles or avalanches.

The tourist BC skiers coming here now are following those decent ski lines (turns)up through the avalanche terrain. I'm guessing they do that because they can't always find the locals climbing up tracks through the relatively safer terrain and have little route finding skills.

The mentor program definitely works better at education, where folks new to the area hook up with a seasoned local and are shown the routes. That still occurs but on busy holiday weekends, there are just too many tourists now and many locals will avoid that scene.

So I agree with you, learning "attitude" and technique from a movie or by emulating commercial guide behavior is detrimental to a person's development in a high risk sport.

We recently had a climber die here on a rappel where two climbers were rappelling at the same time, one on each end of the rope.When one climber got to the end of the rope to his safety stance, he let go of the rope. Needless to say the outcome wasn't good for the other guy.

Apparently a simultaneous duel rappel on the same rope is a sport now.

Concerning new neighbors, the 3 couples that recently moved to our neighborhood are wonderful people.

No local Valley residents were displaced in the sale of those 3 homes.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
Fun CH
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Re: Perceived risks of a New Locally filmed Ski Movie

Post by Fun CH »

alfrandell wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:50 am i have not seen this latest ski film,
and i will not rush to see it.
the same is true for so called climbing films.
these exploitive films are not celebrations of anything.
they are money making attempts by industry.
I was a high adventure athlete during my years,
so it is easy for me to see that these are sell outs from the industry.
People who think that money is much more important that the activity.

you want to watch spoiled children [who grew into overly empowered adults] misbehave when they are flown all around the world?
there is a growing list of titles for you!
You nailed it Alf.

Here's a quote from an article about that ski film by Paul Butler, one of the North Cascades Heli ski Corporation owners.

"Those guys go way deep into the micro terrains,” Butler said. “I don’t think anyone knows the valley around the Highway 20 hairpin turn better than they do now.”"

I think that is a fair statement as it applies to his company's mountain guides.

But if its meant to apply to local BC skiers, this quote shows a lot of disrespect for the local BC skiers who's trails Bultler's company guides have been following for years in order to find new places to ski.

Once "found" by the guide "followers", that terrain is put up for sale to tourists who barely know how to put on a pair of Alpine touring skis.

One of his Corporation co owners had such little understanding of the hairpin terrain and safety protocols that he triggered an avalanche down on a local BC skier climbing our standard, well known route.

The standard safety protocol is to check to make sure the Avalanche path below you is clear before you intentionally trigger an avalanche.

That did not happen and it placed this person's life in jeopardy all because of the careless actions of a guide out to make cash that day.

When I discussed this accident, which I consider negligent behavior for a guide, with the district Ranger at the time Mike Liu, he informed me of the action the forest service was taking.

That FS action was to simply tell the guide company to please review your safety protocols.

Prior to this accident we had discussed this very safety issue of the potential for guides to trigger avalanches down on us.

. I had already witnessed how they operate in our local mountains and have read many fatal accident reports concerning other guide companies.

The FS did not take effective action to mitigate this important safety issue and it almost cost someone their life.

They didn't do it then and they didn't do it after the accident. That's our FS in action and it helps explain thier attitude on safety that has cost many clients and guides injury and death.

Both the Forest Service and these commercial mountain guide operations treat our mountains like they're just another Disneyland ride, when they are so much more.
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Fun CH
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Perceived risks of a New Locally filmed Ski Movie

Post by Fun CH »

Quote: "By the way, do you know about the movie, filmed in Jan. and Feb. in 2020, called Stoke the Fire? It's about heli-skier Sage Cattbriga-Alosa. " end quote

Its already very crowed in the wintertime North Cascades when motorized season starts with the heli ski and off road snowmobile use both competing with human powered skiers for powder lines in avalanche terrain.

Human power generally loses.

The heli drops skiers above us and the snowmobiles come at us from below then motor on above us.

Its a potentially dangerous conflict issue that sends the heebie-jeebies through you as you're wondering WTF is happening, while the intense noise overwhelmes the senses and you think are they going to get me killed today.

BC skiers have asked the Forest Service to deal that safety concern issue that just increases with more use. They have not yet come up with a workable solution.

As far as those TGR movies that Sage makes, they aren't a real reflection of the spirit of BC skiing. More like an action film with stunts performed by stuntmen and women. No doubt that they are talented skiers.

A local guy made three movies. around 2008 that better captures the comradery and spirit of what human power can achieve in the mountains.

Its more like a band of brothers and sisters looking out for each other instead of a helicopter crew waiting to pick up the pieces of a stunt gone wrong while filming big egos all in the pursuit of commercial cash.

One TGR movie featured a stuntman skier or boarder, now a paraplegic, in a sled still going for jumps.

Don't get me started Pearl. :lol:
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
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