Standard Crises of Care

[dorankj]

So Alf, why can’t someone make this same evaluation (in the name of body autonomy) for COVID and all the related mandates? If I have a 99.997 survival rate (for my age group) and I still have questions about long term effects of the current options, why can I not choose my own risk tolerance on this issue?

[PAL]

Yes, term limits please. And remember it was DeTro who brought a posse of ATV's through Winthrop when they were not supposed to be in town limits. No he did not get a ticket or tickets. Let go. Maybe a slight reprimand. Got away with it. Right proud of himself.
Pearl

[Fun CH]

Just stating his misinformation and he is an elected official of our county. It's the misinformation that is being put forth.

if a citizen makes a false report to a Gov official, especially if it causes harm to another individual, its a crime under Wa. State law. I wonder if the reverse is true? Or are politicians a protected class?

Term limits please before they get power hungry.

[PAL]

Just stating his misinformation and he is an elected official of our county. It's the misinformation that is being put forth.

[Fun CH]

Then you have Commissioner DeTro saying at the Commissioners meeting this last week, that the vaccine contains the Delta variant, but did not name a source of where he got that idea.
What see we to that?
Pearl

politicians fall out side of what I consider ordinary people, in other words fair game. Play tit for tat if you think it makes a difference.

[PAL]

Then you have Commissioner DeTro saying at the Commissioners meeting this last week, that the vaccine contains the Delta variant, but did not name a source of where he got that idea.
What see we to that?
Pearl

[Fun CH]

Here is a good article from a trusted source that explains the semantics confusion.


https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021071 ... ne-therapy

"Chance That COVID-19 Vaccines Are Gene Therapy? 'Zero'"

"You may see people posting on social media about the vaccines being a kind of gene therapy, and they're partly right, but in the end this idea often misses some important details about how the vaccines work. They can't change your genes, and they don't stay in your body for more than a few days.But plenty of people have distorted the way the vaccines work into something that could sound sinister. "

"Messenger RNA is genetic material, so in that sense, the vaccines are genetically based therapy.But the FDA classifies them as vaccines, not gene therapy."

One thing is clear to me. The science is complicated and we're putting a lot of trust in that science when we get the vaccine. It's the same Trust I gave when penicillin saved my life or vaccines I took to make sure I didn't get polio or tuberculosis.

To me it's certainly understandable why some people are hesitant especially if they're young and healthy.

I'm not buying that whole do it for your neighbor stuff regarding someone's personal medical decisions.

That concept works with masks and social distance but personal medical decisions on what you want injected into your body or any medical procedure are personal and private.

[dorankj]

If you think this Covid is anything close to smallpox you show you know so little about one or both! Smallpox has no animal vectors and is exactly the only respiratory virus we’ve been able to eliminate. Furthermore, I may be able to accept that our ‘overlords’ can mandate something similar (this is NOT a vaccine, really just a therapeutic) but it must be for all citizens (as stated in the 1905 law) not picking and choosing who to divide and pit against one another.

[Mark58]

Jay Inslee is currently a overlord, Joe Biden is too as are many, many more but I didn’t accuse you of being a overlord only that you seem to be supporting more power and control to those that are seizing that power. You’re rather obviously ignoring my main point and throwing straw men arguments (usually a sign of weak rebuttal) I’m advocating the ‘liberal’ principle of freedom of speech and body autonomy because if this becomes the norm (forcing ‘right’ behavior) then I demand forced diets for everyone with a BMI over 28, all tobacco products completely outlawed for all ages and cars be limited to 5 mph and have breathalyzers in every one from the factory because as a 30 year emergency worker THAT is what causes most of the death and sickness I see!

I guess you must think that George Washington was an overlord too, right? I mean, he required variolation against smallpox because he thought otherwise we'd lose the Revolutionary War. Or was he a leader? Maybe even a wise leader.

[Fun CH]

The questions I ask in my posts are meant for everyone to ponder. And they are just questions. There's No Malice behind them, just supporting one POV. But as you may know internet communication is flawed.

In this case the POV is that if anyone refuses to follow one public health directive that serves their medical self-interest, why would you criticize others for doing the same thing.

Are you doing that Pearl?*(Warning not meant as an attack). I really don't know. All I know is that you, and most all of us are taking the same unnecessary risks that we are being asked to avoid right now. We will all have our own rationalizations for doing so.

*(For clarity: in order to find that answer I would have to take at look back through your posts. Not interested in doing that)



Suggest you read.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -email-and

"In the absence of facial expression, tone of voice, gesture or good old-fashioned “vibe,” we have very little to help us discern what the other person is trying to tell us. Without these clarifying cues, we frequently “fill in the blanks” with our customary worries and assumptions."

[PAL]

First, I felt like you were attacking me by asking those questions in an accusatory manner. It's how you come across. And I am sorry if you think these are personal attacks. Don't you see, I felt it coming from you? You seem to feel the need to always be in the right, from many of your posts.
As I said earlier, we are probably more in agreement on these matters than disagreeing.
You care that people are vaccinated or not from what I can tell. Ok, I admit, so I'm hypocritical. So what, I guess. I am not spewing a deadly virus when I go out hiking or biking. As I said hospitals need to re-evaluate what risky behavior is.
Opening up the campgrounds is risky behavior. Remember they shut them down in the very beginning. Oh, on and on, it could go.
Boy, we've sort of strayed from what this post was originally about.
And we've beat it, so there probably is not much more to say. Except that, South Cr. seems to be mentioned in every post. Ha Ha. I've let that go. People need to ask Jack if they can go through. Simple.

[Fun CH]

Now Chris, I know you are ignoring the advice of public health. So do you care if others ignore public health advice?

What people decide is right for their own medical care is none of my business, so no I don't really care on an individual personal level.

And yes I wish people would get vaccinated, if not for themselves, then to protect children who are not eligible and other folks who medically cannot get the vaccine.

But that's a POV different than constantly harassing people that haven't been vaccinated and blaming them for the current situation. It's the virus that is killing people and making them sick. Most people are doing their best to deal with the current situation that no one chose to be in.

Quote:"You, you are, also ignoring the advice. Up on your high horse, you are." End quote

Yes I am going to keep doing risky sports because the benefits to me outweigh the risks of not exercising (we already discussed that and I acknowledge that it's self-interest motivated).

Perhaps you see me on a high horse but I just trying to point out the hypocrisy of the situation of being fine with ignoring one Public Health recommendation from Okanogan county hospitols, while being critical of folks who are ignoring the advise to get vaccinated.

Just like the South Creek trail online disrespect debacle, perhaps if the blame and shame crowd had respected other peoples right to make their own medical choices we would have had more compliance with vaccines among the vaccine hesitant.

Quote: "I must say you know how to push buttons." End quote

Perhaps you are starting to see the hypocrisy of picking and choosing which public health advise best serves your medical self interest while not affording others the same courtesy.

I don't think this conversation calls for personal attacks. You've done that twice now. Please stop.

[PAL]

Now Chris, I know you are ignoring the advice of public health. So do you care if others ignore public health advice? I do care when it comes to getting vaccinated, which you must know by now, that I am.
This has to be done. Sending people home with oxygen to take care of themselves. That is the best they can do for them.
We are not the problem here. The people, unvaxxed, in the hospital are, all because they did not get vaxxed. Working 2 jobs, etc, is not a good excuse that people are too busy working their asses off to not get vaccinated. There are stores that stay open that are offering the vaccine.
That was an argument you gave earlier.
You come across as accustory. What a question, do I care if I am ignoring public health advice. Geez, you twist things, just like a former person sort of in charge of our country. These actually are good, thought provoking questions you ask, but again, so accusatory.
You, you are, also ignoring the advice. Up on your high horse, you are.
How do I use that smiley face? Wow, I just clicked on all of them. What a variety. None of them match my mood.
I must say you know how to push buttons.

[Fun CH]

Then really, we should not be driving. It's more hazardous than me hiking in the woods. Now biking on a busy paved road is quite hazardous. That is why we to on old logging roads, that most cars don't go on.
So I think the medical establishment needs to re-evaluate what they are saying.

We need to drive to get to work and go to the store to eat.

Sports are optional.By taking that optional risk, including the drive to get to the good hiking, we are willingly ignoring a request by the hospitals who have their hands full dealing with Covid 19 patients and other emergency situations.

Do you care that you are ignoring public health advice?

Do you care if others ignore public health advice?

In Idaho it was just reported on the news that they're sending Covid cases home with oxygen and told to take care of themselves.

Now might be a good time to get vaccinated if you haven't been already.

Good luck everyone.

[PAL]

Then really, we should not be driving. It's more hazardous than me hiking in the woods. Now biking on a busy paved road is quite hazardous. That is why we to on old logging roads, that most cars don't go on.
So I think the medical establishment needs to re-evaluate what they are saying. Because there are many things in life that can cause injury. Heck, an elderly family member of ours went the Dr. office and they ran over her toe with the wheel chair, before she got her feet correctly placed.

[Fun CH]

Chris is just pointing out what the medical establishment says. Or are they still saying that?

yes we are being asked to avoid risky activity.

from the last MVN article by Marcy Stamper.

"In addition to asking people not to go to emergency rooms, hospitals are imploring people to avoid risky behaviors and activities that could land them in the hospital,"..

[dorankj]

Jay Inslee is currently a overlord, Joe Biden is too as are many, many more but I didn’t accuse you of being a overlord only that you seem to be supporting more power and control to those that are seizing that power. You’re rather obviously ignoring my main point and throwing straw men arguments (usually a sign of weak rebuttal) I’m advocating the ‘liberal’ principle of freedom of speech and body autonomy because if this becomes the norm (forcing ‘right’ behavior) then I demand forced diets for everyone with a BMI over 28, all tobacco products completely outlawed for all ages and cars be limited to 5 mph and have breathalyzers in every one from the factory because as a 30 year emergency worker THAT is what causes most of the death and sickness I see!

[Fun CH]

You, of course know Tucker Carlson is vaccinated and recommends them.

I believe you are correct that he has been vaccinated, but he also questions the safety of the vaccine.

Here's just one quote from him:

"Between late December of 2020, and last month, a total of 3,362 people apparently died after getting the COVID vaccines in the United States. Three thousand, three hundred, and sixty-two — that's an average of 30 people every day. The actual number is almost certainly much higher than that — perhaps vastly higher."

The fact is only 3 deaths have been attributed to the J&J vaccine due to blood clots. Now that has been determined to be a rare risk factor for that vaccine, any blood clots that should occur are easily treatable.

Why do you suppose Tucker tries to scare people and parrot anti-vaxxer disinformation about the vaccine when he himself has received it?

My guess is that he makes good money doing so.

[pasayten]

You, of course know Tucker Carlson is vaccinated and recommends them.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tucker- ... sts-2021-7

Exactly how much power and control do you advocate we give to overlords to force ‘right’ behavior?

Where am I talking about "overlords"... especially speaking of childish name calling

[Fun CH]

Anonloser,
If you will notice it was not I that brought up the risk of hiking and biking. It was Chris, as you can see from his quote that you posted.
Pearl

I did notice. I was talking to Chris and refuting his claim that going hiking was equivalent to getting covid while refusing the vaccine.

except I didn't make that claim. Please don't put words in my mouth.

[dorankj]

You, of course know Tucker Carlson is vaccinated and recommends them. As a Christian I would think you would refrain from childish name calling and wrongful shaming of those who are not responsible for ICU beds in Idaho! I honor everyone’s personal choices, even one’s I personally believe they shouldn’t make. I save fat people from their inevitable diabetes (and take them to the hospital) I save smokers from their inevitable lung cancer/COPD (and take them to the hospital) I save drunk drivers from their inevitable crashes (and take them to the hospital). Exactly how much power and control do you advocate we give to overlords to force ‘right’ behavior?

[pasayten]

Idaho rations health care statewide as COVID surge continues

https://localnews8.com/health/coronavir ... ntinues-3/

Crisis standards of care means that scarce resources like ICU beds will be allotted to those patients most likely to survive.

Other patients will be treated with less effective methods and in dire cases given pain relief and other care as they die.

There you go Carlson Foxtrotters...

[PAL]

Anonloser, sorry, I'm am so defensive these days, it seems.
Well stated Pasayten. I am not a wordsmith and you say what I have been thinking and trying to convey in a small amount of space.
Extremist activities are not what I do(unless driving a car is considered extremist! Gosh maybe life is). So while everyday hiking and biking may be somewhat risky, these are not to be avoided. Could be one of the reasons the rodeo was cancelled? Why didn't they cancel the fair, as riding those crazy rides would be considered risky.
Chris is just pointing out what the medical establishment says. Or are they still saying that?
I just watched a Tucker Carlson segment(I have to know sometimes what is being spewed forth) He is saying 100 million Americans natural immunity is better than the vaccine. So the people who are Fox devotees, listen to this, believe it and there you have it.

[pasayten]

I do not consider regular hiking any more dangerous than driving... Shpuld we quit driving for fear of a serious accident? Same with bicycling and many other "standard" activities we do in life. Considering these typical activities and their downside risk of potentially sucking up medical resources seems a stretch in my opinion and certainly will not restrict my guilt free participation in these activities. Extremist activities are another ballgame.

I guess the question is... Is being unvaccinated an extremist activity? Maybe like driving under the influence? If not for true medical reeasons, seems more like a question of ignorance and stupidity... lack of consideration for others...

I am 74 y/o... Thinking of back in the day when we all got our smallpox, poliio, etc shots without all the worry and fuss of infringement of personal rights... Seems to be an air of hypersenstivity nowadays...

[anonloser]

Anonloser,
If you will notice it was not I that brought up the risk of hiking and biking. It was Chris, as you can see from his quote that you posted.
Pearl

I did notice. I was talking to Chris and refuting his claim that going hiking was equivalent to getting covid while refusing the vaccine.