Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

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Fun CH
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by Fun CH »

In 2012, there was a commercially guided accident that partially buried a client in the "Powder cauche" where the two guides ignored existing requlations.

The "powder cauche" and the "Bride" are not on the list of permitted terrain areas that NCMG are allowed to use. (I'd have to check my sources but I believe one of the owners later said they didn't realize that it wasn't in their terrain area.)

The accident occurred during a well known particularly bad persistent weak layer. Bad in the fact that it persisted and was reactive for so long.

We were hearing stories of multiple skier trigger avalanches occurring on heli trips, but of course not much accurate information on these skier triggers was released to the public.

It got so bad that North Cascade heli shut down operations for a while.

From top of the Powder Cauche I could see some of these skier trigger Avalanches over in the Silver Star basin and they were occurring in areas you would not normally expect to see such activity.

Too be continued....
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by Fun CH »

I understand what you are saying but realistically if mountain guiding is to be allowed on public land, it should be heavily regulated. That includes complete transparency of operation including the reporting of all near-miss Avalanche incidents and other injury by commercial guide Outfitters.

Certainly a potential customer has a right to know if the guide they're considering employing has a poor safety record and what was the circumstance for that fatality, injury or near miss accident.

Concerned members of the public have made some progress in this area with the local requirement that serious accidents are required to be reported. But what about the ones where the only harm that was done was psychological because the client was dug out in time and did not need to go to the hospital?

Near Miss Avalanche accidents are always an indicator that safe practice Protocols are being ignored.

But guide outfitters don't want that information made public with one guide telling me online that they did not want their actions scrutinized.


Well that's the whole point. Public scrutiny is accountability and research has shown that accountability leads to better decision-making and certainly better decision-making would lead to a lower accident rate.

Off the top of my head I can think of three commercially guided near miss avalanche accidents in our mountains where regulations might have prevented an accident. One in 2008 and one several years ago where the guide took clients into Avalanche Terrain during a high hazard. Both nwac forecasts for the day of the accidents was to not travel in avalanche Terrain. Those warnings were obviously ignored.

For the 2008 accident, the nwac report stated that it was the worst significant new snow loading over a weak layer set up seen in 20 years.

After that accident, which involved a guide owner and his two clients ( witnesses say both clients were hit in the same slide) resulting in a short ride and loss of gear.

I was told by two credible people (one later became a guide) that another guide owner had sent a local email around basically telling people that if you don't know what you're doing stay out of the mountains.

The next day that guide/owner went to retrieve a lost client ski rental and was hit by natural Avalanche in the same spot and lost some gear.

Excessive Pride has its price, whereas you humility often reaps rewards.

Perhaps a regulation keeping guides out of the mountains during High hazard would have prevented two potential Fatalities.

There are a multitude of other examples from around the country of this same, what I would call reckless and negligent, Behavior.

A lot of time the public only knows about these accidents because of an injury that made the news or a client reporting the accident.
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by Fun CH »

alfrandell wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:27 am guiding is a harmful business that is always extractive....As a lifetime rock climber, i quickly saw that guides were the climbers that got hurt or killed most often. holding themselves forward as some kind of a example of great climbing skill,
Alf, you are always insightful when it comes to what you know best.

Yes, Commercial guides are up there harvesting powder resources on a large scale. Unfortunately they are up there setting a bad example on how and when to travel into avalanche terrain as evidenced by their many near-miss Avalanche incidents, including one where a guide purposely ski cut a steep slope and dropped an avalanche down on a Backcountry skier

One affect of that large scale commercial use is that as the powder resource becomes used up, people will seek out riskier terrain in order to find that untracked powder resource.

This affect on human behavior is known as the "scarcity heuristic", and affects the safety of all users.

Here is a recent observation that I posted on NWAC that gives an example of BC skiers including myself,who are using riskier terrain now. The nearby relatively safer commercially guided terrain was tracked out at the time of that avalanche.

https://nwac.us/public-obs/20210313_ear ... sney-land/
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by Fun CH »

alfrandell wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:10 am
mountain guiding is almost always a trade off. It is a comercial operation that helps the guide and client at the expense of all other members of the community. This is a popular way to make money in our present system. Take value from the 'commons', that is everyones property, and give it to yourself instead.
good observation Alf. This is exactly what happened here in our North Cascade Mountains.

I've been here long enough to remember when the few local guides would follow us into new terrain we would "discover", in many cases to avoid the terrain they were comfortable using.

It got so bad, a friend of mine coined the phrase "we guide the guides" back in the 90's.

That practice continues to this day with our latest run called "16 lines" being taken over by guides and being sold to their clients.

Most BC skiers follow best practice safety protocols and travel in small groups and space themselves in avalanche Terrain in order to avoid having more than one person being caught in an avalanche at the same time.

Contrast that to Guide Service's who often travel in large groups of 10 or more and often don't space themselves when traveling through Avalanche Terrain.

Industry commercial guides are willing to expose their clients to high risk levels just to make a few bucks. The result has been countless accidents and fatalities. Many such accidents being hidden from public scrutiny.
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by Fun CH »

I agree David. The power of just a little slide is enough to kill you.

People have suffocated simply by falling forward in deep snow or into a tree well. Small Avalanches can send you into a Terrain trap where the snow piles deeper, or into an obstacle or over a rock band.

Around 10 years ago I did a test where I had a ski partner intentionally ski cut triggered a small slab above me while I was standing behind a tree.

The snow acted like water as it flowed around the tree and tried to drag me with it.

It's important for BC skiers to understand that they need to find a safe zone when observing any partner skiing above them in avalanche Terrain. If the only safe zone is a large tree you really have to tuck yourself up behind it.

Far too many fatalities have occurred from not doing so including the Tunnel Creek accident down at Stevens Pass in 2012 and the only local BC skier fatality here, a former NCH employee, several years ago.

In that ski Journal story, that guide did eventually help, but he helped the girl who was already skiing out. Did he have time to think about the Optics of the situation and then decided offer minimal assistance?

The really sad part, and I didn't know this when I first posted that story link,from examining the photo it appears that incident happened here on our closed hwy 20. And a friend confirms that she knows the local Good Samaritans involved.

Bravo to Colin and Bridget for helping to save a fellow human from further harm.

And to the guide, WTF?
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by mister_coffee »

Just a couple of general observations:

I was always taught that people traveling in backcountry situations were morally obligated to assist others in distress. Liability issues were not supposed to come into it. Over time it seems that obligation has been forgotten or ignored more often than not. And also at least in this state there is a pretty clear good samaritan law that pretty much covers it all:

https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=4.24.300

So any "liability" argument is ignorant crap.

Also: avalanches are freakin' dangerous. Survival rates for avalanche burial are roughly 50 percent. And even ridiculously tiny avalanches can involve hundreds of tons of snow.

I one hundred percent agree that full transparency on accidents is critically important. Others can learn a great deal from how someone got into trouble and perhaps got out of it with their personal hide more or less intact.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by Fun CH »

I should add;


As long as my "deranged vendetta" yields positive results towards the improvement of mountain safety initiatives for all users and the sharing of accurate information imperative to that safety, and holding guide outfitters accountable for their negative impact actions, any illegal activity and permit violations, it will continue.

The current system for the reporting observed snow instabilities and avalanches and the release of accurate information at NWAC were just some of successful advocacy actions that I and other BC skiers have initiated.

And yes, there was pushback. In that NWHikers thread link I posted, it was interesting to reread that"guide client" (handle Joker) arguing against the release of data citing some nonsense about unfiltered facts confusing the average BC skier.

We "average" BC skiers are also responsible for improvements in the monitoring of these special use permits by the FS.

The helicopter ski company is now required to electronically track its location, report serious mountain accidents, explosives will not be used for avalanche control work to gain instant access to unstable snow conditions (waiting for stable conditions and proper terrain selection is a better practice), skier day numbers are limited thereby reducing resource competition and impact on mountain habitats as well as human health due to dangerous noise (dB) levels from the helicopter.

And most importantly, the helicopter is required to leave an area if other folks are already using the terrain unless doing so results in their safety being compromised. BC skiers do not like other skiers dropped above them in avalanche terrain to become potential avalanche triggers. We've already had one near-miss accident where a guide triggered an avalanche down on a Backcountry skier.

Currently I'm still avocating for the requirement to easy access to all mountain guide and guide/outfitter accident records and the timely and accurate reporting of all accidents occurring on public land to the public.

Also, removing helicopter ski use in the entire Cutthroat basin. Without heli-jet engine noise and being isolated from Hwy noise, it is the closest BC skiers along the Hwy 20 corridor can get to the wilderness experience of quiet and solitude.

So you see, its not really a "deranged vendetta", although that is what the a privileged Corporation with a power and money interest in our public land would like you to believe.

I'm not so sure that a corporate owner harnessing and borderline threatening ordinarily citizens who take an interest for the protection of public land is good for any community. This harassment is well-documented by both police report, reporting to the FS and quite evident in Mr. Butler's email to a NPS government official.

Perhaps its time for NCH to leave our wilderness quality mountains, in peace.
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by Fun CH »

For further reading on my "deranged vendatta" against guides and the need for commercial guides to post safety records, check out my thread on NWhikers from 2014.

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

It starts out with an excellent "lessons learned" article by Andrew Keefer who now works at NWAC. Used by permission.

Here is a sample

"Gary Brill wrote: (Gary is a former guide)
"There is a great deal of value in having guiding (as well as private) accidents and near misses reported.

Some of this information could have long term value for the purpose of the further education of both recreational and professional backcountry users.

But reporting near misses and accidents is also of timely value for avalanche forecasts.

For instance knowing a weak layer exists in say the northeast Cascades may also speak to conditions in particular locations near Stevens Pass.

These weaknesses can in certain circumstances have long duration in the period of four weeks or more.end quote

Fun CH wrote:

"well said. This is the ideal and the goal. It is a fact the both of our local mountain guide companies here in the NE cascades,NCH and NCMG and one of the akaskan heli-guide companies have recently been held accountable for special use permit violations.

They were all willing to participate in dishonest behavior for the sake of monetary gain. Their argument is that reporting near miss accidents would be 'bad for business'. I don't see much in the way of evidence that guide-outfitter companies will fully participate in the reporting of near miss accidents unless compelled to do so by the publc land managing agency.

I don't buy the argument that such disclosure would hurt the industry. I believe that only positive benefits result from honest behavior.

Conversely, dishonet behavior results in negitve benefits to the community as a whole. What sucks is that dishonest behavior often rewards those that participate, thereby making it difficult to combat hype.

The benefits to our community by the reporting of near miss accidents are huge.

Mr. Kiefer states that, 'decisions made and opinions expressed by professionals carry great significance, and they can and should have a disproportionate influence on the safety and well being of others'. Lead and others will follow.

Four seasons ago, we had a bad weak layer, a pwl, set up within our snowpack but the extent of the reactivity of that layer was not well reported. As that layer loaded up, i ran into one of the local waiters out in the BC, who told me that he was hearing reports from the heli- clients that many human triggered avalanches were occuring. 'Sure' i said, 'the guides are doing their avalanche control work'.

He said that these were near-miss accidents and involved the third or fourth person skiing the line and that clients were triggering avalanches.

Boy, what a way to find out that bit of information and even more accurate information would have been helpful. More information started leaking out and the heli stopped taking clients out for a while.

The layer persisted and many weeks later, nwac reported a partial burial in 30 degree terrain in our area, but did not give a location or mention that a NCMG client had been involved.

That information came out though word of mouth and that the terrain was in an area that i had warned several guides and posted on TAY, that we were finding extremely unstable snow in that exact location.

I went up to check it out and it was one serious avalanche that could have easily been fatal. The terrain measured 35 degrees and the avalanche had run over and piled debris on the groups skin track in at least five places.

Two guides had taken three clients out into, not only known dangerous terrain, but terrain that the forest service determined to be in an unauthorized terrain area and the fs took action.

This hype can not continue. Many of us go into the mountians to seek solice.

And now our snowpack has a serious surface rain and rain freezing on the suface in cold areas with fog and inversion clouds flooting about and growing surface hoar. I can't stress enough the importance of timely and accurate information."

Later, Part owner of our local NCMG Jeff Ward pushes back and attacks. (I'm freeski before I changed my handle to Fun CH, so some of the quotes are by freeski, ie, me)

He later tells me appreciates my honesty.

Things have gotten better as far as accurate reporting from NWAC.

However, good luck tring to find commercial guide safety records, although NCH and presumably NCMG are now required to report to the FS accidents that involve medical treatment.
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

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pasayten wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:47 am NCH permit was placed on probation for 5 years... When would this end and does that mean they can't get a renewal until after the probation?

and no increase in skier days... What is their current skier days quota?

Where do they pickup/drop off the skiers? One of the sno parks? Or a private land holding?
probation ended around the beginning of 2018 heli ski season

With the new District Ranger their permit was extended for 10 years last season.

I believe they have 1050 skier days. I was told by the last recreational director that those days would not increase without an EIS (environmental impact statement).

The last time skier days increased was during the 2002-2003 environmental assessment from 550 skier days.

Back then, the Forest Service asked the public to be their eyes and ears on the National Forest because they didn't have the resources to monitor these permits.


NCH is permitted to use many LZs in the National Forest from Silver Star to Easy Pass and North to Harts pass, however their special use permit always required permission from the FS to establish a new Landing site.

Here's what the news stated about the 2012 tree cutting:

https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/loc ... c646f.html

But that is not the whole story of what took place as the FS navigated its way through this motorized use conflict and habitats destruction issue.

I was a material Witness and reported this suspected illegal activity to the forest service, shortly after Feb 19, 2012 when the first cut site was discovered by a Backcountry skier who informed me of the new landing site.

But you know... "deranged Vendetta" against the Helicopter ski Company.
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

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NCH permit was placed on probation for 5 years... When would this end and does that mean they can't get a renewal until after the probation?

and no increase in skier days... What is their current skier days quota?

Where do they pickup/drop off the skiers? One of the sno parks? Or a private land holding?
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Re: Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by Fun CH »

Here is the source for the above quote. It's from an email from the Outfitter guide/owner to a National Park Service employee concerning topics to discuss during an upcoming coming meeting.

The email was obtained via a FS FOIA ( Freedom of Information Act) request and fully incorporated into the public record in it's unredacted form.



Quote:

"in particular one person’s deranged vendetta against guides and the Heli operation." End quote

Note that I was one of many Backcountry skiers who raised the issue with the FS in 2012 of NCH's multiple destruction of a federally listed 'sensitive species' ie whitebark pine trees in order to create unauthorized helicopter landing zones

At the time NCH was seeking an increase skier days and expanding the scope and use of its special use permit.

As result of those tree cutting incidents, and failure to disclose additional unauthorized heli Landing Zones to the FS (at the time only the initial cut site discovered by BC skiers was being investigated by the Forest Service) the NCH permit was placed on probation for 5 years, a $6,000 restoration fine was levied and no increase in skier days.

Also the helicopter pilot received a warning citation from FS law enforcement. After the subsequent unauthorized cut sites LZ's were discovered and reported to the forest service, I requested that forest service law enforcement investigate those additional cut sites to determine who did the cutting.

That law enforcement investigation did not occur and no additional citations were issued or prosecutorial action taken. Why?


"From: Paul Butler <paul@heli-ski.com>
Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: 2019 season preparations
To: Reichert, Joe <joe_reichert@nps.gov>
Hi, Joe:
Potential topics to discuss:
NCH permit history and why no ten year renewal.
User day increase: moderate growth especially at yurt since 2002 (when user days allottment
was increased to 1,050).
Should probably discuss the “drama” involving the local backcountry ski scene and in
particular one person’s deranged vendetta against guides and the Heli operation.
Do I need to do a FOIA for any comments the USFS has received in 2018 concerning NCH?
Attached is the operation plan and we can discuss any aspects of that if you would like.
I can't think of anything else right now.
Thanks!
Paul
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 9:07 AM Paul Butler <paul@heli-ski.com>
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Mountain Guide refuses to help in an emergency

Post by Fun CH »

Quote from this article.

https://www.theskijournal.com/exclusive ... nsequence/

"The guide looked us over and said, “I can take your gear, but I can’t take another rider… due to liability.”

It took me by surprise. This was clearly a critical situation. Tyrel needed medical attention very soon or he could die. And here was a guide brushing it off for liability’s sake. What kind of world do we live in..."

This story hits home for me.

I've been working for years to require commercial mountain guides to disclose their safety records. Potential clients have a right to know safey records before they sign up for a trip in order to be better informed about the risks they are about to take with any mountain Guide Outfitter.

Yet all I get from guides is pushback, with one local guide owner accusing me (most likely) of carrying out a "deranged Vendetta" against guides presumably because I voice my safety issue concerns both publicly and to the Forest Service.


IMO, Mountain Guides are high risk individuals willing to expose their clients to the same level of risk in exchange for money. This has led to countless near-miss and fatality accidents.

In our own North Cascade Mountains, it would be fair to say that our local Guide Outfitters, or folks that were associated with those outfits, have the greater number of mountain accidents than non-commercial BC skiers even though we re-creationalists account for more skier days.

Not surprised that this guide refused to offer help using liability as an excuse. The entire industry needs an overhaul in regards to Public Safety.

After one local accident where the guide/owner was buried in an avalanche with just a hand sticking out, I talked to another guide who was there for the dig out.

After telling me the story I was asked not to disclose the story to the public because discussing Avalanches is "bad for business".

But good luck finding an official record of that near miss accident.

The public has a right to know what takes place on their public land.
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